Level Up Your Communication Skills - Part 1 - Talking Nerdy 36

Show Transcript

Frank (00:01.265)
Totally just blanked on what we were talking about today. right, yeah, okay. I'm actually holding the book to help me. Gives me inspiration.

Chris Saunders (00:09.826)
Yeah, did that give you some ideas, you reading that?

Frank (00:14.129)
Yeah. man. mean, the funny thing is so how to win friends and influence people. But Dale Carnegie is a fantastic read. I know that, you we've talked about how much you love this book and how much you have lived by it. But reading it, there's and giving it away. There's there's so many things in here where it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I knew this. I knew this. But I really enjoy his anecdotes and the stories and being a history nerd. this was written in like the 20s or 30s.

Chris Saunders (00:27.67)
and giving it away. I'll give people that.

Frank (00:41.925)
I very much am like, I know about Roosevelt. I know about Taft. You know, I know all these presidents and like.

Chris Saunders (00:45.826)
It was basically written in that accent too. How to win friends and influence people.

Frank (00:49.775)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And here we can see Roosevelt on the field talking to all his servants and people.

Chris Saunders (00:55.983)
exactly how I pictured the book being written.

Frank (01:00.975)
Become genuinely interested in other people. Smile. Remember that a person's name is to that the person the sweetest and most important sound in any language. Yeah.

Chris Saunders (01:11.416)
That's exactly that. That was well, yeah, that's partly why. It's probably why people who read that book get good at communication, because basically, basically, you know, yeah, yeah, basically, it's like there's anything that worked back then with that accent is still going to end. It's probably still going to work.

Frank (01:19.193)
is because it's from the old days.

Frank (01:27.695)
Yeah. I also think that back then it was very. We didn't we weren't bogged down with as much media. We didn't have screens in the 30s, you know, and so I feel like it was probably the pinnacle of person to person communication because phones were still relatively not relative. They were like 50 years old at that point, I think, like commonly used phones were very recent.

in every household household phones. Let's call it that. But anyway, the point being that you had to be good at talking to people because that's how everything got done.

Chris Saunders (02:06.382)
Used to have to make sales by walking up to a doorway and convincing people to let you in and it was

Frank (02:12.367)
Yeah. And it wasn't an email. It wasn't a video call. It was in person.

Chris Saunders (02:17.398)
Now, well, do you think that makes it so that communication skills are less important or more important now?

Frank (02:24.369)
That's a good question. The obvious answer is it makes communication skills more important now because people there's fewer people that are really good at it. But I kind of think that communication skills with you know face to face is becoming less important because there's other skills for communication you have to get good at like email engaging video.

Other things that I'm blanking on. What do you think?

Chris Saunders (02:57.03)
I think the further we sink into our virtual realities,

there's less demand on us to have those skills honed and effective. However, I think that the skills themselves are far more important and useful because when you get into the actual real world, that's where real things happen. I think there's a misconception that there is a lot of...

I think there's a misconception about reality is like, everything that happened online is what matters. And it's not that. In fact, it's the opposite. A lot of times is what happens in your day to day life with the people around you and, you know, your, your most close clients, your most close partners and friends and family and neighbors and people in our community.

But how we communicate with those people and how we have interactions with them are actually what are going to determine the quality of your life in most cases. So I don't think that the communication skills just that you have with your with your audience online, for example, is nearly as important as what many people want you to think it is.

Frank (04:15.577)
Yeah, and it also does beg the question, what are good communication skills even important for?

Chris Saunders (04:24.172)
Yeah, I mean, I think that it's one of those things. think communication skills will improve almost every single area of your life if you worked on them, right?

Frank (04:33.591)
Yes, but I think specifically what you said about being good at communicating with your audience, because, you know, popular streamers and YouTubers and TikTokers, if that's what they're called, influencers, essentially, like if they're really good at communicating with an audience and maybe not the one on one, that could be really good if they're looking to build a following, if that's more important to them than having close, intimate connections in life.

Chris Saunders (05:01.752)
Yeah, I mean that can be the case. I just think long term that may that's a skill set, but I don't know that that's actually what's the objective like is it to have good quality of life or is it to be famous and I don't know that being famous like if we if we want to about increase your communication skills to be famous. I mean you can do a lot of things to be famous and one of them is being controversial or being the opposite of what everyone else is saying standing out speaking loud and enthusiastic those kind of things maybe would be.

Frank (05:10.223)
Yeah.

Right.

Chris Saunders (05:30.622)
one way to consider being famous or how to get that infamy even as a valid way of doing it. It doesn't necessarily mean it increases the quality of your life. And I guess to me, the communication skills that are really effective or useful, they show up all the time in your, in your life, whether it's negotiation, in, know, your household or negotiation with a client that's paying you for a service. So there are,

ways in which communication can show up everywhere you want to be. I think that's that the principles are pretty much the same, you know.

Frank (06:06.586)
Yeah.

No matter if it's just a minor dispute with a partner or a family member, or if it is a workplace disagreement based on feedback, you know, you get feedback from a colleague and they say, I think it should be purple. And you say, no, no, no, no, it clearly needs to be red. And they are insistent and getting, finding a good way to come to a middle ground or getting them to understand your way of thinking are super important skills. And then on top of that, another level is how to keep your cool.

And I'll be curious what you think on that because I have some thoughts on how to keep your cool and the challenges of keeping your cool. And we'll get, we'll get to that. think.

Chris Saunders (06:47.042)
Yeah. Well, I think that there's, there's a lot of things that people

I think a lot of people don't think they're good at communication. I think there's a lot of people that what you're saying because of the ability to go online and post and type out things and then film yourself in a very controlled environment. there's a lot of people teaching how to do that. They don't need to, a lot of times they don't need to hear that. I think what is rarer are the communication skills to be able to get in front of someone and actually connect and lead people.

Frank (06:57.391)
Yeah.

Frank (07:13.989)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Saunders (07:24.342)
down a path towards an outcome, intentional communication skills that lead to positive outcomes in your life. There's a lot of people I think they don't feel confident with that, like picking up the phone and calling somewhere to get an appointment or being able to approach someone who's a stranger on the street and ask them about something or to get an outcome. There's a lot of

and confidence that comes from having those skills because you can be thrown anywhere into any situation and it and you don't You don't need to worry. I guess if you have those skills

Frank (08:03.471)
Yeah, there's something you can lean back on. Something you said reminds me of a lesson that I have held on to for probably 10 years. And I'm curious what you'll think of this and how it applies. was back from the acting days and I ended up realizing how much it related to outside of the acting world and how much it just was every day. Every day this this has helped me. And I'm curious. So

How often do you find that you deal with a person who seems quiet or reserved or just uncomfortable because maybe they don't know what to say?

Chris Saunders (08:46.862)
How often? it's not, that's hard to say. I'm, I think that there are,

Chris Saunders (08:57.902)
Yeah, I mean, honestly, I don't deal with a lot of people outside of my circle all the time. I deal with a lot of people in sales situations one-on-one. So those I'm usually guiding the conversation anyway. But what do you mean? I don't know. I don't know that I particularly do on a regular basis.

Frank (09:08.293)
Well, think about. Yeah. OK, well, I guess you surround yourself with people who can hold themselves really well. deal with various numbers of people who are, you know, clients who want help with something, but they're not quite sure how to communicate it. I've also gone to people who, for example, there's a guy that I get. I go to him for painting certain minis and he is

He's fairly timid and I can tell and he's even told me he's not a huge fan of talking. Like he just makes him uncomfortable. And so I make an effort to put him at ease. But the thing that I remember learning was back in the acting days of. Don't and this is because when you're an actor, it's very easy in the beginning to get stressed out and be you're unable to have a be present in the scene.

So I was told, don't focus on what you're going to say or your lines, focus on the other person and what they're saying. And I took that lesson and realized, you know, we actually do this all the time in day to day. just, we focus, we should be focusing on what the other person is saying instead of constantly focusing on what I'm going to say. And I think this is just.

active listening.

Chris Saunders (10:40.45)
Listening is the is is the listening is the main thing about communication. I think people need to be good at. When I was in sales, why I'm sales, but most of the time it's about really listening to people so that you are able to. I guess the way I want to say it, I have a nice succinct way of saying it. What you hear is more important than what you say. That's.

what I mean by listening, right? And I agree that listening to a person really listening is actually kind of addictive for the person who you're listening to. Like, have you ever had it where you're talking to someone and you get their attention and then you feel like nobody else in the room or anywhere else matters, they're locked in on you?

Frank (11:32.496)
Yeah.

Chris Saunders (11:33.634)
That's one of the things that I try to create when I'm in a situation with somebody. It's hard to do digitally, in face to face, when somebody is saying something oftentimes, especially at parties, when people are drinking, even at a bar or whatever, a lot of times people are like just waiting to say the next funny thing and just interact like that. And when you actually lock you lock in and you look at someone and you really listen and give them the indication that you're really listening.

Frank (11:53.062)
Yeah.

Chris Saunders (12:02.658)
But they they get locked into and they're like, wow, this I don't get this very often. Not many people actually ever listen to what I'm really saying. It almost makes them uncomfortable sometimes when you hear some or you see someone really listening and that gives you as listener. Yes, some power because you have the ability to make them feel at ease or not. But also when you really have that listening, when you really listen to what they're saying, you then are able to.

Frank (12:09.776)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Saunders (12:31.662)
respond appropriately to that as well. And you kind of have to just let go and trust yourself in those moments that you're gonna come up with the right words at the end of them, at the end of their sentence.

Frank (12:45.947)
So how do you typically engage people beyond just listening? How do you engage with them?

Chris Saunders (12:54.872)
Like just in a conversation.

Frank (12:56.889)
Yeah. Yeah. Like say you're already talking to them or, you know, this isn't about starting up a conversation and making a friend. This is more so you're in a conversation and you want to. Captivate you want to engage, you want to connect with this person for whatever reason, you know, you want them to become a better friend. You want to build your connection with this person for sales reasons. You want to build loyalty with a potential customer. How do you typically engage them?

Chris Saunders (13:27.63)
Well, I get very curious about them. That's the first thing is not to be invasive, but to be curious. And I think there's a line where when someone says something and you're listening to them, and then what is fascinating to you about that thing they just said? And what would you want to actually know more about? getting curious about what someone said. So it might be around the why behind the

them believing a certain thing or it might be, well, how did you get into something like this? Or, or what made you make that choice in that moment? Right? Like you, you're, you've got to get curious about what they're saying. And when you ask an intentional question that shows you're listening, people feel more connected to you as well. that's the first thing I'll say about really listening is, is that, also that

You want to be like at least in intentional sales situations listening for what they're really saying, not just what they're saying, you know, like you're listening for know what I'm always listening for in a conversation is who do people want to be?

So when they are talking to me about who what their life or their business or what they're doing, I'm listening for who does this person wants to be? Because that tends to be who what people want to buy and who they want to buy from is someone who they want to be and who has something who is already doing the thing that they want to do. So, you know, does someone

Chris Saunders (15:11.17)
Do this, this is person want to be the center of attention? Are they looking for love? Are they looking for a large amount of money? Are they looking for people to pay, just pay attention to them? Are they looking for, you know, who do they want to be? Do they want to be someone of note and impressive? Do they want to be known as a wise and smart person? Like what, what are the, who do they want to be? Cause that tends to give me a lot of ideas of where

where to make them feel good and where to actually guide them in decision making processes if they happen to be selling something.

Frank (15:45.653)
Reminds me of in in this book, Del Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. He mentions the importance of making other people feel important. And it ties into what you just said about what do people want to be? Because typically what people want to be is their idea of success and the fulfillment and proof of their importance.

Chris Saunders (16:11.512)
Yeah, but it's different for everybody too, right? Like what does importance mean? Like, I mean, it's important that, you know, I'm respected by everyone when I walk in the room, or is it important that, you know, I'm the person that people go to when they need help, or I'm important because I have the love of my partner and children. like, what, is that? Like, you have to listen and I think what can help

Frank (16:13.755)
Yeah.

Chris Saunders (16:39.726)
and listening is listening for what could be their core values. Some people know their core values right off the bat, and sometimes people just don't, but they live them anyway. And so I always like, what are your core? What I'm listening for is what are core values, especially in sales situations? Like, are they more of a safety person and security? Are they excited about adventure fun? Are they, you know, more of a core value around love and connection? you know, core values can be anything, right? But

It really is important to listen for what kind of core values do people have because when you align you and your product to their most important values, you're more likely to create sales or loyalty with that client.

Frank (17:29.275)
This touches on, because right now we're in December, so there's holiday parties happening. I actually tomorrow am going to my partner's holiday Christmas dinner. Work, work, holiday Christmas is kind of redundant. Her works holiday dinner. And I am outgoing and they have intentionally seated me near a buffer zone. I am the buffer. I am the buffer.

Chris Saunders (17:57.378)
You're middling. You're middling in the middle of the table. You're the person who has to juggle the table. like, go loaded with questions, man. Go loaded with scenarios and stories.

Frank (17:58.383)
Yes, for a couple people.

I... I...

Frank (18:08.217)
Well, so the thing is, over the years, I've learned that a great question that I love for engaging people is, you know, after the whole, hi, like, I'm Frank. yeah. So and so. you know, crazy weather, right? You know, what do you do after those simple, basic ones that don't really go very far anyway? I always pull out. So what do you like to do for fun? And I find that that is

Super I mean first off it ties into something. I really love talking to people about which is what they are interested in Because like you said it's you know, you like engaging you you you said in slightly different words But you like learning about the person and and that's very true for me, too I very much love learning something that the person loves because you can learn something from anybody and everybody Whatever it is, and if they love something they probably know a lot about it

So I really like asking people, what do you like to do for fun? And if they say biking, you know, I like doing long bike trips. And I say, wow, I know nothing about that. Like what's cool about it. What do you enjoy about it? And I find that that ends up just, they ended up carrying the conversation on for a long time. And then it's funny, I didn't think about it this way, but in this book, Dale Carnegie says, you know, I find that

I had it, he gives an anecdote about like, spoke with somebody at this, at this holiday event and it was probably a holiday work party. And, and he says, you know, I spoke to this person. just asked her a few questions and she talked for 45 minutes. And then at the end of the night, she told the host that I was an excellent conversationalist and I had some very interesting things to say, but I didn't say anything for 45 minutes. It was just her.

She just enjoyed getting to talk about something and I was actively engaged, know, know, showing curiosity with questions. And it's super true, super true that if you just show that interest in what somebody else loves and is passionate about, it can go a long way, not only for you building a relationship and if you want to be considered, you know, a good person with these people, it's great. So that's why I think I was put in as the buffer here.

Chris Saunders (20:28.492)
Yeah, well and the other thing is it can be awkward to be the one just starting a conversation asking and being curious about other people because some people will feel Awkward asking questions, right? They're like, I don't want to ask the wrong question. Then people feel awkward like you know And that's very common for people to feel not that way I don't want to be the person but in actually when you ask questions you are the person who kind of does have power in the conversation but let me ask you this because I think this is

Frank (20:42.609)
That's a good point.

Chris Saunders (20:56.866)
this can go too far. How do you, like a lot of people who learn communication skills will learn this principle of like be fascinated by the other person and ask them lots of questions. And then they turn into just the interrogator and they don't ever have anything of value themselves to say. And also like it's very,

Frank (21:10.81)
Yeah.

Chris Saunders (21:21.592)
very comfortable to be the person asking questions rather than the person taking the attention and delivering value. That's why, I mean, it's very easy to start an interview show. It's very hard to do a show where you are the person just giving the wisdom all the time. And I think that it's a, it's a balancing act in say conversation or in communication between those two things. How do you not fall into the trap of being the perpetual questioner?

Frank (21:50.202)
Well...

Frank (21:59.973)
You know, this is funny enough reminds me I was on a date many years ago and someone and I was asking a lot of questions because this person they were not much of a talker. And so I ended up asking almost all the questions and they even said, I feel like I'm being interrogated. And at the time I thought, well, you're not asking anything. You don't show any interest in me and your answers are brief. Like you want to sit here in silence? Is that what you want? I didn't say that.

Instead, I said, well, yeah, I'm looking to get to know you. And she didn't care much for that. obviously that did not go into another date. But as far as when do you go too far with questions, when does it become like an interrogation? I think it depends on the kinds of questions you ask.

Chris Saunders (22:49.806)
I think it also I think there's also just a social knowledge to understand like when you've asked what in a group especially I've asked this person a couple of questions Where can I draw someone else into the conversation and that's what you're talking about with middling right is well I've talked to this person I brought now it's like I know this about this other person It's like didn't you go on a biking trip last week last year something like that. I heard you talk yeah, did and then it kind of spurns another

Start part of the conversation and draws people in to it and by understanding who your audience is and knowing a little bit about everybody you can be that communication bridge between people where you get conversation going and you kind of draw people in like if you notice people off to the side that are not Contributing you can draw them in potentially with with a good question or a good comment

Frank (23:43.397)
That's tough though. It's not easy to like facilitate an entire conversation at a table. I find, I mean, it, think it really helps if you have good questions. And this is an area that I personally struggle in, but you, Mr.

Chris Saunders (23:57.324)
I need a couple leaders too, by the way. Like you need another couple leaders around you for that. This is turning into how to run a dinner party as opposed to how to communicate effectively.

Frank (24:03.287)
Yeah. Yeah, well. But it does tie in like I want to know what you think because you do a lot of question work, you know, talking with people. How do like what is a good question even mean? And and and not just for a holiday party, of course, like you can ask about what vacations did you take and yada yada? What are you? What are you interested in? What do you like? But also. In a a a business environment, whether it's colleagues, you know, and.

You want to ask questions about maybe projects that you're working on together, or you're talking to a customer, a client, someone you want to build loyalty with. Are there any fundamental techniques for asking open-ended questions that aren't just the binary yes or no answers?

Chris Saunders (24:53.335)
Yes.

Chris Saunders (24:57.464)
So to follow up on that answer, because you're asking, you know, like, well, it's interesting because it's like, OK, if you ask, you see a great art piece and then you ask the artist, you know, what makes a good, you know, painting stroke that allows you to do that? And it's like, it's not really about just the painting stroke. You know, it's about like.

Frank (25:01.169)
Because I just asked a binary question

Chris Saunders (25:25.314)
There's a conception that you have around the whole piece that this painting stroke goes here and this painting stroke goes here and this is a different technique and there's 25 different types of paint things that went into making this one piece. It's kind of the same in a great conversation realistically. I don't want to make it sound too over complicated, but what are some of these things? There's like...

Words, words matter. Just take for example, you know, we're talking about improving your communication skills. That to me is a very lousy name for this episode. Okay. So let's say like maybe it's maybe leveling up your communication skills is better, right? or what about this? Like what if we called it attaining epic level communication skills in under 20 minutes?

Is that

Frank (26:13.425)
I'm just stunned because you threw an epic again.

Chris Saunders (26:16.31)
Yeah, or you could say learn four strategies to changing anyone's mind in 20 minutes. Or I could say master the four secret strategies to turn anyone into a client in under 20 minutes. I mean, which of these has more emotional resonance, right? Or which of them do think you would click on?

Frank (26:34.885)
Hmm.

Chris Saunders (26:35.99)
And the point of this is to say words matter. And so when you ask me what makes a good question, well, the words in the question matter. How are you describing the experience and then getting to the heart of what they're actually saying? So listening to what they're saying and hearing what's really going on and then what's the area that's very, very fascinating that you want to dig into. And I think that when somebody is

telling a story, which is often where it is that you want to ask questions is dig into the part that is more than just what they're feeling. Because I think very often we'll go to a place of like, well, what did that feel like? And in realistically, that's not what is interesting. What I think is interesting about a scenario or story where someone's making a choice or doing something fascinating is, you know,

what led you towards making that choice or what led you into this mindset, right? Sometimes we'll also ask questions like, well, what are the lessons in that for you? It's very open-ended, but to me, it's better to be like, at what moment did you learn the lesson, right? Or what is the key moment that it changed for you? So I'm trying to draw out the moments.

Frank (27:40.209)
Hmm.

Chris Saunders (28:00.898)
because people, life is a series of powerful moments. And when you get to see a movie, all movies are is stripped away moments, only the core and important things. And a good movie has only the most important moments that draw you through the characters story arc and to the end. And a good conversation when someone, you're digging into the various moments in their life that can actually.

that actually make them them. That's where I think you really learn about who they are is when you discover those moments and allow them to come out. so it instead of. So I think that when you're the question you're asking is how do I ask better questions? Right. Of of somebody. And I think part of it is really understanding what makes something interesting versus, you know, and not putting it all on them to.

Frank (28:46.256)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Saunders (28:55.982)
to make it interesting. It's like, where is the interest in this? And that's not easy. That's why being a great interviewer, like a Larry King or, you know, any of these kind of iconic interviewers in the the gray, you know, Joe Rogan or whatever, you know, why is it that they're so good? Is they they have a real expertise for what's going to be interesting and their own curiosity has been honed like an ax towards slicing towards the great things that

that people have in them. see the people for who they wanna be and who they are and know like, the audience is gonna love this part of you. You don't know that, but I know that. So let me guide you towards that so that I can bring something out that nobody's seen before.

Frank (29:39.801)
I like that the idea of and one differentiation that I found in what you said was you look for the interest, the interesting moments, not just what's interesting to you as a listener, because, you know, that's only going to go so far with the person you're talking to. But I mean, you know, it's part of the conversation. You you contribute some thought and some input, but then you throw it back to the person. like a game of tennis. You know, you hit the conversation back and forth, but also.

carrying on that conversation is asking, you know, asking the questions about the, made it interesting? What makes this thing interesting to the person that's talking? And when did those moment, like, where are the moments that it changed? That something changed, whatever's being talked about? Where's that moment?

Chris Saunders (30:29.846)
Life is a series of changes, right? A series of moments where we shift and things become different. Did you ever read Steinbeck's The Pearl? Okay, well, there's a, the whole thing about The Pearl is this guy finds a gigantic pearl underneath the water, and basically when he finds it, all life is now divided between moments before the pearl and moments after the pearl.

Frank (30:38.278)
Mm-mm.

Chris Saunders (30:57.994)
And there are these moments in our lives which are like the pearl. You discover this thing and everything after and everything before that was different. And I didn't really like the book very much, but that principle is so, so cool to think about because every day there are moments like that or you can find moments like that in everyday life and realize the significance of them, right? Significance of before and after and...

At those moments, we show up as people making decisions. We show up as people and fail. And that's what's interesting to people. At least I think when they listen or when we communicate. Now, this has all been on the aid of listening and asking questions. And I think those are really important. But one of the things I noticed you were doing earlier, and I think it's a really good principle of communication, is storytelling. So.

Frank (31:53.914)
Mmm.

Chris Saunders (31:54.922)
multiple times during this time, you have tailored your lesson towards a story. And I think that there is a reason for that. But the storytelling, the ability to wrap up lessons or moments or these crucial things that you want to share into story, it absolutely captures people at a different level than if you just start barking off principle one, principle two.

Frank (32:23.053)
Yeah, right.

Chris Saunders (32:23.874)
Principle three, you know, and that is only going to get you certain people, right? But when you get into a story and you tell the story and you captivated and then at that moment, that was when I learned that boom, not good of wisdom, you know, that's how you from a standpoint of advertising on your store on your actual from a standpoint of communicating to a mass audience, whether it be social media.

Frank (32:38.381)
Yes.

Chris Saunders (32:52.598)
at a conference or public speaking, all of those things are, you have to, all of those times, utilization of storytelling can be incredibly valuable for people to be better communicators in those situations. So at your dinner party, have a few stories loaded as well.

Frank (33:12.113)
I always have a few stories loaded. It's interesting because I also think about how storytelling, I feel very strongly about the idea of storytelling. For me, here's a story. But for me, I had a period of time probably 10 or so years ago where I was trying to figure out what is it at my core that I really love and want to because

When because in today's world we jump from job to job typically we don't typically start out as an artisan or a journeyman or someone learning underneath a artisan. We don't we don't start out as some apprentice. That's the that's the term. We don't start out as an apprentice and then carry on the next 50 years of our life doing that. We don't usually do that in at least in our part of the world. And I thought

because nowadays you jump from career to career. had just left acting, food and beverage industry. I was trying to find myself and I thought, gosh, what is the thing through all of this that I've loved? And for me, it was storytelling. And I find that I just love telling a story. love engaging with people and I feel that in previous lives, I was the village storyteller. That is what I think I

really have honed over the years and over the lifetimes. having those stories even now it's changing is my point. Now I think that storytelling has has hit a new new it's it's a medium social media. Sure. Short form content is a new way to tell stories and it's changing the expectations. So it's changing how we communicate.

And I don't want to make this all about social media and how to make good reels and content. But I do just want to bring it up briefly of it is changing the attention span. And I know people have talked a lot about that. Everyone's attention span is now the attention span of a goldfish. So I still think though and tell me what you think. But I still think it's different. I still think telling stories in person can be engaging.

Chris Saunders (35:36.972)
I think that the attention spans are actually not that different, but our standards for attention are much higher.

Frank (35:45.1)
Ooh, can you elaborate?

Chris Saunders (35:47.126)
I think that we capture people for quality, like the quality of say a story. And like, there's a lot more competition for our attention now. And so because it's the precious resource that we have, we only allow it to be captured by what we deem as the highest quality attention grabbers. instead, and our ability now to select what our attention.

is captivated by in many ways, I think is higher than it's ever been, right? Like if you don't like something, how hard is it to get away from it nowadays?

Frank (36:26.193)
It's easy, you just use your thumb.

Chris Saunders (36:27.136)
Swipe. Yeah, exactly. Like a moment, right? Whereas, you know, used to be a joke being at a dinner party where someone was doing a toast and it was incredibly boring and long and nobody ever listened to and they were, my God, he keeps going. no. Like that was a long standing joke because we didn't have the ability to remove our attention so quickly. And the fact, I think that our standards for attention are higher than they've ever been. So now we expect, and there's such, and we feel, I think we feel like

I don't have to listen to anything that's boring anymore. So why would I? So

Frank (37:00.355)
And if I am bored, I can just go to this thing in my pocket and flip through my phone.

Chris Saunders (37:04.428)
Yeah. And so there, are a lot of things out there that I think captivate our attention at such a high level that we can pay attention to them for a lot longer. There are many times I've watched reels where I'm like, I wish that was longer, or I wish more reels were like that, or I can't wait for the next reel because they made it into a story that was like multiple parts. So I wanted to hear what was next, you know? So there are things like that, that I think you can use as storytelling is about leaving open hooks, open loops, I should say, not open hosts.

Storytelling is about leaving open loops that you can close later and that's one of the principles of storytelling. It's just like open loops and then close them later. Open loops, close them later. It keeps people coming back wanting to pay attention.

Frank (37:49.605)
Yeah, like I can imagine comedy does this stand up comedy, especially when you do a full circle bit, like a full circle joke. I don't pretend to know what these terms are supposed to be. the way there you go. Yeah. Where you drop a joke in the beginning and then you tell a completely different story, but you still bring it back to that joke you said. Yeah. That callback. Yeah. But I find that it's especially, like you said, super effective in storytelling. If you start off with, you know, something like.

Chris Saunders (37:59.512)
Callbacks, yeah.

Frank (38:17.145)
So the other day I learned a very valuable lesson and it all started in the morning and then you keep going you tell and you get to the punch line and you say so my lesson was and then in that way you've pulled people in in the beginning and and then you're able to deliver on what you pulled them in with and it's pretty disappointing if there is no delivery at the end.

Chris Saunders (38:28.067)
Yeah.

Chris Saunders (38:41.89)
Well, when everyone's staring at you and wanting a story like what you're seizing the attention of a group, whether when you're telling a story, so whether it's a dinner party, whether it's a large group of people you're speaking to, whether it's people on social media, you're stepping into the attention realm and saying, look at me for a second. Trust me. I got something to tell you that's worthwhile. So. That is awkward for a lot of people.

Frank (38:49.574)
Mm-hmm.

Frank (39:07.054)
Yeah.

Chris Saunders (39:11.65)
Like it is one of those moments where it's discomfort and awkward. And I think when people see that in their, in other people's eyes or other people watching them, they're seeing me right now, they lose the nerve, they lose the confidence, they stumble or get nervous. How do you work through that?

Frank (39:35.257)
I was actually just going to say I struggle with this. I typically if I'm so if I am if I have an audience if I am performing or if I am trying to I can I use the word performing pretty liberally. I will be talking to two people and I would call that performing. It's not like I'm lying or anything or I'm pretending it's just that I'm using techniques that I've learned as a performer to engage with multiple people. And one of those techniques is looking them in the eyes.

and you know, yeah, not staring at them. Not mean muggin. Yeah, and don't blink. Whatever you do, don't blink. No, I definitely will look between them. And so that is the thing I try to do and I'm conscious of. However, just earlier today, I caught myself in a conversation with three people and these are colleagues of mine and I was

Chris Saunders (40:10.818)
Just go between the two people really quickly. Really quickly. Don't blink.

Frank (40:33.645)
Looking at the table more than I was looking at any of them when I was talking and I do that. I know lots of other people do that But as far as how do I engage with people like what's a way? Man, I tell myself to look at them in the eyes and I make sure I don't go to my phone I make sure I don't go to my phone because as soon as I go to my phone, I'm telling them I

don't really care in this conversation, you're not important to me anymore, my phone is more important than all of you. So I avoid that big time, unless my phone is vibrating and it seems important and it's like, this is a work call, sorry, I gotta take this. Otherwise, yeah, I don't use my phone.

Chris Saunders (41:20.088)
think there's some simple techniques to be able to be relaxed and maintain relaxation. One is, obviously the more you do it, the better you're going to get, right? So if you are willing to fail a few times, which means feeling awkward and tell a bad story here and there, you're going to feel a lot more comfortable in the situations where you do capture the attention better than failure.

Frank (41:28.741)
Breathing. Yes. Yeah.

Frank (41:45.083)
my gosh, yes, have to say real quick. have to say about failing often. It's so true. I fail so much. So much. I tell a story that I think is funny. No one cares. I've gotten to a point where I can tell people aren't going to care about this story, but I'm going to say it anyway because I like the story and I want to share it. Or like I was just in the car the other day with my partner and I tell a story knowing

This is a story she has no context for. No matter how much context I give her, she's just not going to find it funny. But I delivered it anyway. And just as I was sure she didn't find it funny and I just kind of learn how to recover from that, ultimately, which is like, well, I'll say something like, well, fuck me. Like, you know, or, yep, that was an inside joke. People find that funny.

Chris Saunders (42:31.605)
Yeah

Chris Saunders (42:35.054)
Cool story, bro.

Frank (42:37.739)
Exactly. Well, that was a cool story, huh? Yeah, okay. Anyway, how would you eat for breakfast?

Chris Saunders (42:42.668)
Mm-hmm. So I was a do know I learned you know, know how to scuba dive

Frank (42:48.933)
Me too. I didn't know that.

Chris Saunders (42:49.964)
wow. No, see, learn new things all the time. But I learned how to scuba dive when I was a teenager and then didn't scuba dive for a long time, like 10 years maybe. And then I went to Bahamas on a sales trip. And when I went there, there was a sales person who I had got there and he said, his name is Toma, but he doesn't have a, like the French Thomas, know, Toma, right? And so he comes out and he's like,

Frank (42:57.509)
KUN.

Chris Saunders (43:15.374)
Please we should go and play. don't know why he sounds like French guy, but he I'm going to use that for his voice. Please we should go in there. Let's go scuba diving. That's my French accent, alright? And I'm like sure, let's do some scuba diving. I could do that. I learned a long time and so I can't find my certification anywhere so they have this quiz you can do and I you know know the answers. We do the quiz. We get in the boat. We're all decked out. We're ready to go. You know we're going to do two dives in the Bahamas and all sorts of stuff, right?

Frank (43:19.78)
Sure.

Frank (43:25.179)
That wasn't bad, that wasn't bad.

Chris Saunders (43:43.918)
And so all I remember is like, okay, the first rule of scuba diving, you know what you do? You don't hold your breath because if you hold your breath underwater and you're changing pressure zones, bad stuff happens. So don't hold your breath. So I like clear my airways. I'm like getting all right. As long as I keep breathing, I am good. No problem. Right? So we go down to our first dive. It's supposed to be like a 40, 45 minute dive, something like that. Right. And we go down, we're like pretty deep and I check my air.

Frank (43:49.776)
Right.

Frank (43:54.379)
It expands.

Chris Saunders (44:12.844)
And I checked my air and I'm like, what the heck? It's only been like 15 minutes and I'm already three quarters of the weight on my tank. was like maybe halfway through our dive and my tank was like three quarters of way down and we needed to do. We need to go back up a lot of way too. So I'm like, geez, what the heck, right? So I motioned a Toma and he's like, you know, that's his French underwater speak. And he basically goes and we start going up and we had to leave our dive early, you know, and.

Frank (44:34.661)
That was good.

Chris Saunders (44:42.698)
All of a sudden it came to me as we're like coming out of the water, right?

Chris Saunders (44:50.444)
The second rule of scuba diving is regulate your breathing. And I remember it kind of reminds me of situations where people are looking at you or you're in a presentation because you can get very stressed out and not realize you're stressed out. And I was taking really quick breaths in and out because I hadn't scuba dove in 10 years. And I had convinced some Bahamians that I could

Frank (44:55.448)
Uh-huh.

Chris Saunders (45:20.236)
to it and they were fine with me going underwater and taking the risk myself. But I literally was like panicking probably underwater and not realizing it. How many times are you in that same situation where maybe a little panicked, but you're not even aware. So the set, so the second, so the, this is the, this is all to say the lesson in this that I remember is breathe. I know it sounds really simple, but when you are in a panic situation,

Frank (45:34.673)
That's so true. There's times, go ahead.

Frank (45:42.629)
Yeah.

Chris Saunders (45:48.66)
or even just before you're getting into that situation, remember, take a breath, calm and regulate because taking regulated breathing and having that control over yourself can slow your heart rate down, can take everything down a minute and it can give you the oxygen your brain needs to think of the things it needs to think about.

Frank (46:13.733)
Yes, yeah, man, I take a deep breath right now. I know that there are some of the people we've interviewed where I've been a little intimidated or really excited to have them on and I get so caught up or I just get really caught up with this thing I wanna talk to them about. I forget what my question was. I forget what my thing was that I wanted to ask them.

And so I've learned to have to write it down, but also, yes, breathing deeply, completely. Yeah. And I wonder how much, I wonder if there's folks that just get panicky in a conversation. And because they're getting panicky, exactly like you said, they take the small, short, shallow breaths.

Chris Saunders (47:08.654)
Yeah, that's 100%. I see you see it all the time. You people forget where they're supposed to breathe while they're telling the story. You ever seen someone who's like, and so then we were like doing this and then this happened and we were like, this is it. But and then the way I got to breathe and it's like, they're just, they're, so panicked and they're not really thinking about what the next thing is. They're just trying to get through it as quick as possible and keep the attention on them. so they, they, they forget where to breathe. They forget to breathe.

And sometimes it can be even more captivating to stop.

Frank (47:45.233)
I mean, I'll tell you right now, I know you stopped for dramatic effects and I just jumped right in, but I'm going to say that one of the reasons I don't stop and why I do go pretty quick when I talk sometimes is because I personally don't like silence. It can make me uncomfortable and which is, yes, I am sure.

Chris Saunders (48:04.28)
I know I edit our episodes. I'm the one who's listened to you many a time. Me too. But I also like, I've heard that energy where sometimes there's like a moment and it's just like, let it sit. So guys, know, like, it's just Frank jumps in and I'm like, all right. So sometimes I do move that out a little bit just to get a little space.

Frank (48:14.201)
Yeah.

Frank (48:29.701)
Well, I'm always afraid if I don't jump in with my thing, I may not get a chance. We may move on to something else and I'll have lost the opportunity. So there's that too.

Chris Saunders (48:37.386)
Sometimes that's okay. That's the other thing some I actually think that's another thing that's good Because oftentimes you'll be hearing stuff. know, I have something to contribute But you have to listen to what's going on in the room if the room is moving and not you specifically I'm talking to anyone who's doing this. I'm not But but but some but sometimes there's there's a moment where it's like, got something really cool to contribute but but the the moment is gone and so the

Frank (48:52.879)
No, I'm just gonna apply this to myself, please, go ahead.

Chris Saunders (49:04.386)
When we drag it back, it's like you're trying to drag attention back and say like, no, I, I want to say something here too. And it's like annoying to people cause we've moved on from that or it feels complete. And there are times where we've all done this and I've done this too, where we realize like, nobody really wanted to go back and hear that. And we were kind of complete on that. In fact, it was, it felt, it felt good. So sometimes it is like letting that stuff go. There's a really strong.

Frank (49:15.675)
Mm-hmm.

Frank (49:32.603)
Yeah.

Chris Saunders (49:33.698)
principle in communication, at least in sales too, is don't sell yourself out of a sale by talking too much. And I can tell you there are times when, you know, the customer might've, you know, like, like when, when we used to have a thing, that we were to sell people on, which was called the forever guarantee. And it's the most incredible guarantee you've ever heard of. It's not lifetime. It's forever. It literally is be handed down to your kids. could be.

Frank (49:40.598)
Hahaha

Chris Saunders (50:01.518)
forever, they'll get it and then they can replace the knives again. And it was just like, this is the big thing. And, and let me tell you about this testimonial, right? That this person had it for 34 years and we gave them a brand new set after 34 years. And then these people had it for 10 years. They sent it back to all new knives. When they got it back, they were, their jaws dropped. Then this person died. They had it in their will to their kids and they, and so I remember doing this sometimes and sometimes people are like, they get it.

right off the bat, right? Because it's in the name forever guarantee. And as you keep talking about it and like hitting over and over and over, it starts to turn to salesy. And if you don't realize that there's this like, Hey dude, I get it. Good guarantee forever. Tell me, show me more. If you do, if you don't really recognize that, that's like trying to get the attention back over to you when you've got something else to say. It's like once they've got it, move on, right?

Frank (50:57.211)
That's really good. I think about how whenever I'm on a sales call for a new client potentially or trying to secure the next project in my video work and I have found that less is more. So what I mean by that is when I say less about what we do, and this may be unique to what I do, but it's because every project is different.

And you know, people listening might be in that boat where they do maybe commission art and every project is different. You know what your person wants, what your client wants. I want a waterfall. I want like these colors specifically in the waterfall. And you're like, that's not how I would do a waterfall. But OK, sure. You know, you can't sell them too much on, hey, look, I'm going to make you I'm going to I'm going to put, you know, it's going to be a big mountain. It's going to have this and that. And they're like, I don't want any of that. I just want a waterfall. You know,

With my job, I know that I can pitch them on something, but they actually might have something else in mind. If they have nothing in mind, then sure, I will suggest some ideas. But otherwise, I just like to ask them the questions. Like, what do you want in it? What is it used for? What are you going to do with this? Where are you going to put it? And that way, they not only get to tell me more, but I'm speaking less, which is what I want.

You know, I don't want to, like you said, I don't want to sell myself out of a gig by talking about, all these other projects I've done that may have no bearing on the kind of thing they want made.

Chris Saunders (52:35.778)
Sometimes it's okay to let other people have the final word on a subject, especially when it comes to a client, right?

Frank (52:39.718)
Yeah.

Yeah, but not in a podcast. I have to have the last word in a podcast.

Chris Saunders (52:47.438)
I've heard that, but in the end I'll decide because I have the editing power. So there's been a few times when I'm listening and I'm like, I'm going to, I'm going to edit that out, cut that. Frank just, Frank just wants to say something. I, I, I, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there's, there's tone as well. like I think 55 % of community, some of the things I've learned

Frank (52:48.613)
Thanks Chris. That's true, you're editing.

Frank (52:58.929)
I'm gonna cut that.

You

Guilty. Guilty sometimes.

Chris Saunders (53:17.24)
from sales are that 55 % of communication is body language. About 30 % of communication is the tone that you use. And then there's about 15 % of that are the words. And I mentioned earlier that words are really important. And so that we actually do wanna agonize sometimes over the words that we use to describe when we ask questions. But let's talk about tone and body language for a second, because those are also really powerful ways to communicate.

Frank (53:41.553)
Mmm.

Chris Saunders (53:45.006)
And I think body language, the breathe thing really makes a difference in how your body language comes across when we're in person. I think when you're have good clothes on that you feel confident in that matters. A lot of people think, you have to dress for success, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'd be dressed over top of what other people are dressed. Because if you're wearing a suit at a beach party, you would feel awkward.

And the thing is you want to actually dress for where you will feel the most comfortable. So if you're at a beach party, you're wearing beach style clothes that you feel comfortable in. And if you're at a fancy dinner party where everyone's wearing a suit, you know that and you're wearing appropriate wear for that. That's what dress for success means. And it's really the reason it is because it makes you feel confident in yourself and be able to perform. So you're not worried or thinking about what people are thinking about your dress.

Frank (54:43.929)
Yeah, I remember hearing a while ago, mean, dress is super helpful. I mean, so I'm reminded of back in the acting days and I

Chris Saunders (54:56.558)
Well, let's keep it on body language, right? Because that's all AIF in acting.

Frank (54:58.813)
Well, that's that's my thing is is like when you in acting there is so much of when you go into an audition. mean, auditions are essentially your sales opportunity. So you go into the audition room and they say go in with confidence, you know, dress in like your favorite underwear that's going to that's that you're lucky underwear. Right. Like some people have that tradition that that that superstition and, you know, over the years I realized, you know what?

No, fuck that. Like, it all depends on what your character is that you're auditioning for. So it's a little different. But I remember hearing that advice. I think it's important and very much applicable to situations that have any time that you are dealing with people you don't know especially or that you're trying to create a good first impression. Yeah, like you said, clothes are important. Walking in with confidence. How do you typically get, how do you

What's your confidence like suit, you know? What does that look like for Chris?

Chris Saunders (55:57.976)
Well, there's something called the primacy effect, which is really reworded as the power of a first impression. I learned it in sales very early in my career. And what that means is that everything that you do and say is filtered through a first impression. So when you realize everything you do and say is filtered to the first impression, you realize it's a power to it. It's not to be all end all. You can fix first impressions that don't go well. But if you can make it a good

per first impression, you've done a lot of the heavy lifting. So I think clothes that fit, if you're asking me, what do I wear? I wear clothes that fit and make me look good. But also, also I work out and stay fit so that I feel good about my body and how I look and all those other things, because that increases your confidence too, because it's not just about what.

I'm dressing up. It's about the whole package in my mind. You know, so I feel more confident if I've worked out that day or if I've, you know, dumb something hard for myself, if I've meditated or I've done any of these things that really are part of what allows me to say exude confidence, right? and then I can feel confident. I don't have to fake it.

Frank (57:17.081)
Right. And yeah, when I say like what your confidence suit is, yeah, sure. Clothing can definitely be a part of it. And I, but I didn't maybe elaborate very well, but it was.

Chris Saunders (57:24.718)
But that is my confidence and my confidence is my lifestyle. Yeah, yeah, okay.

Frank (57:28.837)
Yes, that's what I'm getting at is like, what is the non-clothing stuff that puts you in that confidence mode?

Chris Saunders (57:36.898)
Well, there are being in a confident state. So there's a few things. One is, like I said, if I know I got something important to do that day, I try to schedule it later in the day so I can go to the gym first. Because when I finish the gym and I also want to have enough sleep, I want to have enough, you know, water and I've eaten, I'm not starving, you know, I've had all the things that make me peak me in that day if I really have to perform. So there are those things that work for me.

I want to, you know, have known my outfit that I want to wear. That makes me feel like a million bucks. You know, I want to know that my life is in order. Like I don't, you know, I don't want to get into a fight with my girlfriend, but the day that we fight, we don't fight that often, but I wouldn't want to like provoke something the day or the night before an important thing. You know what I mean? Like, like you don't want to be distracted with stuff like that. and of course emergencies happen and things happen, but you try to mitigate those situations, you know,

Frank (58:19.952)
Right, right.

Chris Saunders (58:29.926)
You let people in your life know when important things are happening that you can then focus for that time period so that there's no stress. I think a lot of people cause their own stresses by not communicating important things in their life and when you are available and not available. And the other thing is, you know, you don't have to feel confident to exude confidence. You know, so the first time you start to, the first time you do something, you shouldn't feel confident. Otherwise you're a psychopath.

Right? You actually just need to exude confidence. You don't have to be confident. Being confident is earned through doing the thing that's hard over and over over and over again. I remember, you know, when I was a sales representative making my very first phone calls, very first appointments that first weekend, all I, all I did was pretend to be confident, you know? And so I said to them, you know, I'll make eye contact, which is a great way to pretend that you're confident. I smiled a lot.

because people who are smiling seem like they know what's up and nobody questions it and squarely face people when you talk to them. And I try to keep my body language very relaxed. you know, I tried to avoid shakes and like lots of jerky motions, just trying to be calm and breathe through those kinds of things.

Frank (59:46.064)
Yeah.

Yeah, definitely the whole being calm is and, not moving a whole lot. I definitely resonate with that. And it does tie into the thing that comes to mind for me is in, in body language is, is also our posture. I remember hearing once a while ago, not acting related, but just kind of mindset is when you are talking to somebody, stand tall. And if you need help remembering to do that,

You kind of, you know, you're what is this four inches down from from where your neck meets your chest four inches down from there like your solar plexus roughly. You kind of stick that up, not like exaggerated or anything, but just up enough. And that says something. And part of the biology around it is that your chest is up more. So you're taking bigger breaths. And this ties back to what we were talking about earlier.

But getting those big breaths definitely helps us to feel more in control and more grounded. And it's also a thing in martial arts too, where you want to make sure you're taking big breaths, helping that channel, that energy through the ground, back up, you feel rooted. And there's that confidence, that stability that you were talking about. And I find that helps me a lot. If I ever manage to remember all of that, then I will use it.

but I typically don't remember to, you know, plant my feet in a defensive stance in a conversation and take deep breaths through the ground.