Level Up Your Communication Skills - Part 2 - Talking Nerdy 37

Show Transcript

Chris Saunders (01:01:26.542)
First principle of 12 rules for life is stand up straight with your shoulders back. If you don't feel confident, you will start to feel confident by changing your physiology. Tony Robbins teaches that at his conferences is basically riles people up into feeling confident that they can do anything by making them move and move their physiology in such a way that powerful, confident people would. And it's amazing.

Frank (01:01:40.859)
Right.

Chris Saunders (01:01:55.628)
the impact that has. Sometimes I will freestyle rap songs that I know that I've written because it makes me feel more confident before I go do other things.

Frank (01:01:57.391)
Yeah, mobility, super.

Frank (01:02:10.329)
is that why? I have noticed like a couple times you kind of do it under your breath when I've noticed it, but there's times that we've been out at events and we're not like around people or anything and I might notice you do that. And I'm kind of like, huh, that's part of his ritual, I guess.

Chris Saunders (01:02:26.53)
Yeah, well, I think that when you can do something nobody else can do, it does give you confidence. I was with a I was at a mastermind one time and it was there's this lady who trains dogs and is one of the most powerful dog agility trainers in the world, like world champion level person. And when they were talking about. How do you maintain being in a room with?

really powerful people when they've say build businesses 10 times the size or had impacts that are 10 times the size than that you are. And it wasn't talking definitely about her, but she perked up in that moment out of this room and said, they can't, they can't train dogs. And it was just like this really simple, like principle of like, Hey, I don't care what they could do. They can't do what I fricking do. It's just like that attitude of, you know,

Frank (01:03:21.849)
You

Chris Saunders (01:03:24.694)
And so now when I like, cause I worked very hard to be able to functionally do any freestyle rap and to write rap music. It's not an easy skill and it did not come easily for me. And I don't even want to pretend that I'm like at the level of somebody who is doing it professionally. But when I do that for me, I feel more confident about who I am because it's like, I know this person. I don't care how much money they've made. I don't care how much they've done.

They cannot do what I'm what I'm doing right now because I know they haven't spent two, three, four years in their room doing it. Like it's just confidence in that way because you've built some skill that other people don't have.

Frank (01:04:04.357)
This is touching on, because you're reminding me, I'm loaded with stories today. You're reminding me of when I was younger, one of the first acting camps I ever did. And so you're like, you know, you're like 10. So they're not really going to teach you how to do Shakespearean necessarily. But they essentially the exercise was, hey, what is something that what's a language like? Not not literally language, but what is a

What is verbiage? What are terms? What is a subject matter that you know so well that you could speak in terms that many other people don't understand what you're saying when you say it? And at the time for me, it was piano playing. Like, you know, I listed off some terms like arpeggios and, you know, an F minor to an A diminished and stuff. And she said, you know, all of you have something special that makes you powerful. You have knowledge that makes you strong.

And she was going in that vein. And I remember in that moment, like as a kid, that was a foundational moment from a core memory, if you will. And it taught me that we all have something unique. Like you're saying, you know, it is that there is that confidence that we get from that thing that we do really fucking well. You know, we all have something we do fucking well. And that kind of ties back to earlier when I was like, what do you, you know, asking a person, what do you like to do? What do you like to do for fun?

Chris Saunders (01:05:25.174)
Yeah, and I think people will. It. That's why it's important to be doing something that isn't just to be developing a skill, that's why it's important to be developed. That's why it's important to be developing a skill in something that you are proud of. And it can be anything. It could be, you know, music, sure. Art, it could be.

professional video gaming like high level. Some people could use that. you know, I can talk to girls, I can, or, or men, like, I don't know, whatever. you can, or you could say, I can make beats. I'm an incredible decorator. I'm an incredible cleaner. Like there are all sorts of things you can be game-changingly good at that don't necessarily have to do with your business, but because you're good at them, you can draw on those things to feel confident.

Frank (01:05:55.429)
Right?

Chris Saunders (01:06:20.704)
in the moment because I guarantee people you're sitting across from or, you know, talking with or trying to sell, there's a lot of them that can't do things that you can do. And there's a way to draw that, confidence up into yourself from doing hard things that you've built skill in.

Frank (01:06:39.439)
Yeah, we're we're talking about, you know, it's funny. We're I don't know if you've noticed this, man, but we've talked about how to be a good listener. And the kind of things to ask or that you could ask, and we've also talked about how to be confident when you're speaking and and or how you can feel comfortable speaking and how confidence ties into that. And I think we've actually been

Talking about each person in each position in the conversation whether you're the listener and you're asking the questions or either person talking And how do you feel comfortable talking? And that's interesting to me. We've kind of covered both sides of the interaction of the conversation I mean if you planned that nice work, I just caught on but otherwise

Chris Saunders (01:07:32.735)
No, I don't plan.

Frank (01:07:34.413)
That's true, you don't. I'm the planner. I'm the structure guy.

Chris Saunders (01:07:39.298)
funny I think I think things emerge out of things just emerge that way I wanted to talk about one more I want to talk about a couple more things maybe but one of the things I wanted to talk about was

Frank (01:07:47.974)
Yeah.

Chris Saunders (01:07:59.502)
A principal that really helped one of my old sales managers in a time when he really needed it. we had this program where people could run a summertime office, but they would, go out, find a lease for an office for four months, recruit a bunch of students, create a summertime team. And then these are usually students who are running the office and they go back to school at the end, having made a bunch of money and created an amazing experience. Right. That's the idea.

But it is not easy. You're working long hours, long days, and you're convincing people to sell knives. So already it's a pretty big uphill battle. There was a manager that I trained and he went out to run his branch office. His was Spencer. And when he went out, his first month, May, which is a big month in

Canada for recruiting students. Okay, I know you guys get out sometime in June, but May is when everyone gets out in Canada. So this is what we call the gold. It's the area where every student's looking for a summer job and you got to try and capture as many of them onto your team as possible. And Spencer went through that month and he had a rough training group where not a lot of people showed up. They didn't really sell much. They weren't really good. And then like he did the same thing. He ran four training groups and

I think at the end of that month, he was the last place branch office in all of Canada. Like he had sold the very least and had had the worst start out of everybody. So he went to a conference and at that conference, we had a bunch of speakers and one of the speakers talked about the difference between being a thermometer and being a thermostat.

And so I've talked about this before on other people's podcasts, but I haven't really talked about it here on our podcast. And so I thought I'd mention that because the difference between being a thermometer versus a thermostat, what is the difference, Frank? You know the difference, right? Yeah.

Frank (01:09:56.963)
Yeah, thermometer tells the temperature in the room, thermostat sets the temperature in

Chris Saunders (01:10:01.432)
Yeah. And so you want to be the thermostat because in communication, I think a good way to look at it is be the thermostat because like you at this dinner party, when like when you're going to a conference, when you walk into a sales conversation, you don't want to just take the temperature of the room. You want to be the temperature of the room.

You are an impact player. You change things when you get in there, you bring your energy and that could be through your enthusiasm, through your confidence, through your ability to make people laugh and do something unexpected, break them from their regular pattern. So now they're living on your vibe. Musicians do this, right? That's what their job is, is to change your state, to be the thermostats in the room. You know, same with great art. Art, great art changes the temperature in the room. You know, a great podcast, throw that on.

You change the temperature of the room and you're a thermostat. So Spencer learned this lesson at this conference. And I'll tell you, he went from being the last place to being the number three branch in all of Canada within two months. And I asked him after the end of the first month, after that is like, what's, what was the big difference? He's like, you know what? I heard that thermostat thing that people were talking about. And then when I I realized I was the one who had the influence over what was happening.

and I could make a difference with those people. So instead of letting them guide me with their energy, I started guiding them with my energy. And my energy was actually so powerful as to bring an office from last place to third place.

Frank (01:11:38.981)
Hmm. Yeah, I I've I've heard that before and I and I love the concept. I do struggle sometimes with it. OK, so the times that it makes sense to me is like you said, like at a dinner party, you know, I can engage. can set the temperature in this, you know, so to speak. But there's times when and I'm curious what you think and maybe well, yeah, I'm curious what you think on this. The.

I work with people who have strong personalities and typically salespeople, know, those salespeople and their personalities, and they are very fixated on their way of doing things. And that's part of what makes them a great salesperson is that they can convince you. And if you're on the fence, they will tell you all the reasons that why what they think is the is the right way to do it.

Even if they actually don't really know what the fuck they're talking about, they will just say, this is the way it should be done. This is the right way. And you're like, I'm not going to turn this into a argument, you know, and I feel like these kinds of people are in every workplace, whether they're in sales or not, even on podcasts, but it's hard to, it's hard to set the temperature when there's somebody else who is so fixated on the temperature being their temperature.

Chris Saunders (01:12:55.274)
even on podcasts.

Chris Saunders (01:13:08.056)
Yeah.

Frank (01:13:08.859)
How do you handle that? Do you just say, fuck this room, I'm gonna make, I'm gonna be the thermostat in a different room.

Chris Saunders (01:13:17.548)
You know, it's it's not always about battling with them because I think it can be that way. You're taught. I think that there are the reason why those people are being the thermostat is they are aligned to some form of value or principle that they have deemed an immovable object. And so it's very challenging to move that person because.

They are aligned to a value, not aligned to an outcome. And what I'm thinking you're experiencing in that situation is your desire to be attached to an outcome versus a value. And so one of the most powerful things I've learned in communication is to always be committed to your values and not outcomes. So if I'm talking to someone and they tell me, you know,

I don't need this thing that you're selling me or I don't want to do it this way. And I keep pushing the same thing. No, we got to do it this way. Do it this way. Do it this way. Do it this way. That's going to be much harder because I'm you're communicating to that person that you're committed to an outcome versus a value and values of things like truth or service or win win or, you know, customer needs or honesty, long term benefit. Those are values to be aligned to.

And so instead of being committed to like, want to do it this way or this outcome be committed to providing like, Hey, I want this to be a win-win experience for everyone involved. So here's what I would say would be a win for me on this situation. And this would, would this be a win for you if we do it this way? So it's, often about alignment and being aligned to a value and not an outcome. So it's not a battle.

about a principle, like I'm committed to having the best customer experience for our people. So since we're all aligned to that, here's my concern around it. And aligning to a value that is outside of yourself that all of you agree is important is actually way easier to then be this thermostat for that room, moving it in that direction. I'm committed to sharing my goals and looking for opportunities everywhere. So.

Chris Saunders (01:15:38.22)
That's why I'm so focused and working so hard right now to achieve my goals, you know? And I think, and that's why I would love it if you told 10 to 15 people about our podcast, you know, like, because we're trying to build something bigger than that. And we're really committed to our goals. Like just those types of things can allow you to be the thermostat a little bit more instead of having to, it's not an outcome that you're committed to. It's a value that everyone's committed to.

Frank (01:16:04.593)
It's an interesting point because yeah, I'll admit there are some times where I get fixated on, this should be this way. And someone says, no, or they say, that's a waste of time. Or the other day, someone said, why worry about that? Why put the time into it? And in my mind, it's because I have a level of, I have a standard.

And I want my work to look good, not just because it's mine and I have my name attached to it. In fact, I usually don't have my name attached to anything. It's more so I want to grow. I want to provide the customer a great end result that they love so they come back. And in order for me to feel like I've accomplished that, I have to put in the work and the time. And when someone tells me, no,

That's silly. You know, that doesn't make sense. Sure, I will ask myself, is the juice worth the squeeze? Is the effort worth it? Or is there diminishing returns here? And I usually ask myself that, but when someone says, no, that's essentially telling me that's dumb that you're worrying about that. It's like, what are you saying? But I'm hearing that rather than fixating on

having a great product, it's more so, hey, I'm all about providing the customer more than what they want so that they come back. That's why I'm doing this.

Chris Saunders (01:17:41.506)
Yeah, so for example, like there's a couple things in there. One is I think that you as a person are committed to providing great work that is a reflection of you because you see your work as a reflection of you.

Frank (01:17:56.455)
less so now than I used to.

Chris Saunders (01:17:59.022)
100 % I get it. It's less so but I think that if you wanted to say convince people like and that's a question you have to ask yourself like because when it comes to say Us on our podcast and what we're doing like I think this is an outlet for us to be able to do stuff at a higher level that we really want and do the standards we want it to be that's that's partly why we do it when we're working in another company and Because you know we all deal with this sometimes where what we believe is the right way to do it in the standard would

is different than what other people will consider it. But if you can align why you're thinking about it to a company goal or to a value that they hold dear, you might be able to convince them differently about why this is essential. So it's like, actually, the reasoning I'm thinking about this is I think about the customer experience here. This is an opportunity for us to give them a level 10 experience where they will not only just like it, they might tell their friends about it or other companies.

And then that actually will provide us with more business down the road, or it will also, you know, ensure that they'll come back to us because I know for a fact other places won't do this since it's not easy, but I'm willing to. And that's why I'm bringing it up to you because I think this could be great for long-term and market. and you know, setting ourselves apart in the market. For example, like if I had to sell an idea, I might align it to a value that I know they have so that they at least know I'm not doing this because I don't know any better.

but because I actually know where we're all trying to go. And I think about it strategically from that standpoint.

Frank (01:19:30.457)
Yeah, finding those, finding those shared goals. Like, yeah, you said align, you used that word and yeah, absolutely. Finding those situations where you align.

Chris Saunders (01:19:36.59)
Well, and then you also might find out that the person who is telling you not to waste your time on that might say, well, yes, but one of our values right now is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And your energy should be put into that because if you're putting it here right now, then it's not on this. And this is actually what really matters. And this matters from a macro perspective. So sorry, but no. And that at least gives you the respect of like, hey,

I appreciate your thinking about this from your perspective and that level 10 experience. However, this over here is actually what's really important deadlines or whatever. Like we actually are a service based company that really needs this done now instead of 10, you know, two weeks from now or whatever. And so there might be things on that side of it that they can explain and then you understand differently what the values are. And I've had those situations before in my company and in my old company, it just, it's just part of being in business is you have to learn where.

Where are the values of the people and what is important and prioritized?

Frank (01:20:38.223)
Yeah, figuring out it's been so much of, so I just hit the five year mark at my company, which is crazy for me. I haven't worked at one place for five years.

Chris Saunders (01:20:52.238)
That's good. I've only ever worked more than 10 years places. That's crazy.

Frank (01:20:55.953)
Okay, well, I've had a lot of different jobs, a lot of different bosses, and I'm sticking at this place because I like my boss, even though I don't always agree. He always does explain like you just demonstrated why we should do it his way. And at the end of the day, it's his company. I'm to do what he says. But even if I don't agree, but there's also so many times where after I go along with what he says, I'm like, fuck, he was right.

God damn. And eating that humble pie is so annoying. It's so annoying because it's like, right. Okay. You know, those, those experiences are, I think they, I think they help us grow. I think they help us become more well-rounded, more open-minded, but God, can they feel like punishing or

punching bag after a while. It's just like, my God, I'd love to just have a week where my ideas were the right or the best ideas.

Chris Saunders (01:22:03.562)
Here's a another principle of communication that I think is maybe a learning opportunity for us right now Is don't take things personally and so one of the biggest things I have seen and and People is when they take things personally The only person who tends to suffer is is you right the person who gets offended right or thinks it's about them and so

I like to remind people nobody makes you feel anything. You only make yourself feel things based on the story we tell ourselves about what a person said, did, or what happened. So things like this where maybe an idea doesn't get, taken or maybe I would just ask, what is the story you're telling yourself about that? Was it because is there things you're saying about that that are making it a story that is not

It may not be at all because it wasn't a good idea or that you're not capable of coming with good ideas, right? I think it might be just there are potentially other stories at play here that need to take priority because it's not your company, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Frank (01:23:17.265)
Sure. I mean, you're right. And I hate it, but I have heard so many times in my life, don't take it so personally. It's just so annoying.

Chris Saunders (01:23:29.998)
Well, let me ask you, what's on the other side of not taking it personally? What's the opposite of that?

Frank (01:23:34.969)
It's not as easy of a switch to just stop doing.

Chris Saunders (01:23:39.116)
No, no, I know. I know. know. know. I'm not but I just want to ask what is the opposite for you of not taking a person of taking it personally?

Frank (01:23:48.069)
The opposite of taking it personally would be probably apathy and not caring.

Chris Saunders (01:23:54.368)
Yeah, see, and that's not who you are. So I think you might need to change the definition. So like, of the, what's the opposite of, of, of taking something personally is not not caring and apathy, right? What's the opposite of it or what could be the opposite of it instead of that, right?

Frank (01:24:02.796)
of.

Frank (01:24:21.403)
being a machine.

Chris Saunders (01:24:23.286)
No, that's the exact, that's the same thing as apathy and not caring.

Frank (01:24:24.785)
I'll just have AI help me out with that. You're getting at something, I feel, and I'm not entirely sure without some in-depth reflection here.

Chris Saunders (01:24:41.912)
Let's just ask chat GPT right now. What is the opposite of taking something personally?

Frank (01:24:47.473)
or too seriously, or no, that personally is good.

Chris Saunders (01:24:51.85)
Mm-hmm. So there's two things. There's you can either detach yourself emotionally or not care or you can view it objectively.

Frank (01:25:05.113)
Yeah, that's no, that's fair, man. That is actually I have gotten that advice in the past and I do use it sometimes but it's Sometimes sometimes I just forget

Chris Saunders (01:25:13.07)
Yeah, and I mean I'm not trying to turn this into a therapy session or some stuff like that But I was just I just wanted to reflect that back because I think a lot of people often Do have like what when we're struggling with something like that It's usually because of some story we're telling ourselves and it's like if if they don't like the story or they don't like the thing I've came up with I'm offended and you know, have to care because if I don't care then I am you know,

Then I don't care and then I have apathy and that's like and I can't be that person because there's some evil around that too Whereas it doesn't have to go all that way. It can be just if something doesn't Work for me. It could just be you know an objective look that that wasn't a match or there's a there's something there where it doesn't have to be personal it's just This person was looking at it objectively versus, you know, I have apathy. It doesn't mean I don't care about anything. It just means that

And when I look at it, that some of these things need to be looked at objectively. And, you know, I'm glad I care about it, but they maybe don't.

Frank (01:26:20.665)
Yeah, I mean it helps to care a lot when you do a creative art form or a creative work. Yeah, because you're like, at least this is what I tell myself. When I care a lot about, I want to get the right angle. I want to get the right lighting because I love the feeling when I look at the screen and I go, fuck yeah, I got it. That is so cool. Even if the client doesn't care nearly as much as I do, it's the satisfaction I get from my work.

Chris Saunders (01:26:24.864)
It does. It makes it better.

Frank (01:26:49.721)
which is what makes me like to keep doing it. But yeah, there is an aspect of, I could look at that objectively.

Chris Saunders (01:26:57.855)
Or even just like, it's okay if they don't care about it because I care about it.

Frank (01:27:02.925)
Yeah, that's yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Chris Saunders (01:27:05.068)
Yeah. And so, and if they knew what they, that's why they're hiring you is you care. So like, it's not a bad thing that, that, you know, that you care so much. It's actually a great thing. But then, you know, that's where, that's where if you, the fact that they don't care shouldn't be surprising is I guess the way I would look at it.

Frank (01:27:26.393)
Yeah, it definitely it's great for doing the work by myself, but it isn't great for those interpersonal dynamics sometimes, which is what we've been talking about.

Chris Saunders (01:27:37.612)
Yeah. Well, I'm just trying to give some ideas of where, cause there's, there are the interpersonal is always where that, where it is, right? Like where one person cares more about something than another person cares about something. And, you know, sometimes in our relationships, like, you know, my girl, I'm going to go see, I just bought tickets to see corn and system of a down in New York city. it's going to be crazy. and

Frank (01:27:49.403)
You

Frank (01:27:57.615)
oooohhhh shit

Chris Saunders (01:28:02.818)
This is the only time I'm going to be able to see those two beds probably ever together. It's going to be incredible. And, we're going to go down there. Now I bought two tickets because I know I'm not going to go on my own. wanted to share an experience with someone. Does she care at all where we sit? Does she care at all about seeing these bet? Not super into system of a downer corn. She probably couldn't name one of their songs, at least not corn. she probably knows a few system sounds. So, so the point is like, but,

Frank (01:28:29.755)
Sure.

Chris Saunders (01:28:33.272)
Does do I take that personally because she doesn't care or do I just appreciate that she cares enough about me to go along with me? Right. And so so the way I look at it like that, you know, and this is how it works with any sort of dynamic relationships and stuff is that there's always going to be someone who's caring more about it. And there things I've been to with her where, you know, it's not my thing, but I know it's her thing. So I care a lot about her. So I jump in and and be

Frank (01:28:43.972)
Yeah.

Chris Saunders (01:29:03.246)
and be excited about it and be in it and, and, be, be in it too, because I think that that's what, where you can bring that care. like you care about your client. And so that can translate over to caring about the work they want you to create, or you care about the company. So that can translate over to caring about, you know, what the boss wants you to do. And that's where things I know generally win, right? Like that's why you do it, but your care.

is actually what's given you all that power, but it's also causing you to have that distress. So keep that in mind that those two things are great. Just realize where you're putting your care matters.

Frank (01:29:37.634)
Yeah.

Frank (01:29:45.763)
It does. Yeah. mean, if for people that care about their work, it does create this new sub journey. It's a sub quest on your journey of, OK, I don't want to lose this ability of care because it's a powerful tool on my journey. But I also have to learn how to wrestle with this power. It is like I wouldn't. I'd say it's like a powerful artifact. It's a powerful tool relic, but you.

don't want to lose it. You don't want to just toss it away. And it's also hard because it's part of you. But you do have to learn for myself. I have to learn how to wrestle with it at the times that I care that my care becomes so strong that I just want other people to shut the fuck up. And you know, my care is brightest. My care is strongest. My care will persevere against all of your other thoughts and objectives because

And yeah, to come to terms with, you know what? Yes, that care is great. Let's communicate it. And if other people find that they don't think that care is as important, then I have to be OK with that. And that's been hard.

Chris Saunders (01:30:57.198)
Well, that's also the entrepreneur journey because literally no one will care about your business as much as you do. And your business suffers if you don't care about it. And in fact, there will be very few people outside of you that will care about you caring so much about it. It's a solo style of journey, isn't it?

Frank (01:31:05.177)
Yes.

Frank (01:31:19.793)
It's so true. It's a lonely, yeah, it's, but the cool thing is you can find people that care about parallel things that align, which is nice.

Chris Saunders (01:31:31.746)
Yeah. Well, you get to support them in their journey because they probably have something they care about a lot, right? And then ideally, if you are, you, you encourage them and have care for what they're going after and their personal goals, right? Whether it be, they're working out a lot, or they have this art thing they're doing, or, know, they play music on the side or they have, you know, they do, they throw great parties, like they dinner parties, like maybe that's what they care about. And, know, when you show care for that,

Frank (01:31:37.199)
Right.

Chris Saunders (01:32:00.738)
funny enough, a lot of times people will come around and be willing to have care for, for you having your goals, even though they don't get it and they will not care nearly as much as you. But that is the, that, balancing act of care is a big part of, think having great communication skills is understanding that what you care about will not necessarily be what everyone cares about. But if you show care for someone else's care, that goes a long way.

to getting them to care about your stuff and what you care about. And you can build a support network around having similar like-minded people who are like also entrepreneurs, right? Like that's what, I mean, we're building a community here of nerdy entrepreneurs that can connect with each other, help each other. And part of the reason, even though they're all different niches, markets, that sort of thing, is that they can look at those other people and feel supported or feel that.

that person's like me, they care a lot about this thing. And so I'm not alone because I care a lot about this thing that I'm doing. And I think that it makes it so much easier to keep on that journey of nerdpreneurship or entrepreneurship if you have a support network around you that understands that and cares as much as you do.

Frank (01:33:18.479)
Yeah, I'd even go as far as to specify that it's a respect and encouragement when you have the back and forth, when you can have that with other people, whether it's a fellow nerdpreneur or a boss or even a partner. When you get that encouragement, when they express care for what you care about,

that is respectful, they're not putting it down. It's encouraging. They want you to go get that thing that you care about and use that care to accomplish your goals. That is when you feel nurtured and that's when you want to give it back to them, I find. Because I think we all have been in either relationships or employed or, you know, collaborated with people who only cared about their thing and they didn't care about caring for yours. And it just felt

It feels one-sided.

Chris Saunders (01:34:16.098)
Yeah. Well, it's, it's, learned something in objection handling that, you know, how to not take things personally, you know, it's very easy to write a story about someone who says, you know, I would never spend this kind of money on whatever it is you're selling. Right. especially if you're a high priced product, that has a lot of quality to it. And how easy is it when we're having an objection thrown at us?

to take it personally and then write a story of like, this person is dumb. I hate them for being so self-righteous and their beliefs. They don't know anything. Or could you say, hey, they just don't get it yet. Maybe if I'm patient and explain things better, they might actually get it and it'll resonate with them. understanding and patience on the side when people don't have the care that we do or don't have the perspective we do.

is something that really helps in communication, that patience around what, when someone disagrees or doesn't see what you see, understand they aren't you, they don't have your perspective. I used to say this all the time. If people knew what you knew, they'd be by it, right? Like if they, if they went through three days of training or if they had all these other things that they understood about it, like if they have seen all the testimonials from all the people who went through this program and got all the great results that you know, cause you've been doing your job for.

Frank (01:35:22.864)
Right.

Chris Saunders (01:35:36.034)
five years now, you said, right? So you have all these stories and you've seen the growth, you've seen successful clients, you've seen the impact it's made, you know, all these things. This is like, you know, day two of meeting you, for example, right there, like there, they don't get it yet. Right. So that's where we have to have that grace and that patience sometimes to build that relationship. And I think so many people with the attention span economy we were talking about earlier are very demanding of people understanding their beliefs instantly, even though, and their perspective instantly, even though that is

Frank (01:35:47.003)
Come on.

Chris Saunders (01:36:05.999)
never been expected and never and it's really unrealistic when you when you think about

Frank (01:36:11.195)
But it's also the need. It's also they have to have the need for your thing that you're offering. It's not just that if they understood all the cool features and testimonials, they also have to already have a problem that this is solving.

Chris Saunders (01:36:25.25)
Or they have to be made aware of a problem that is not necessary, that needs to be solved. Yeah, like a lot of people are like, it's depending on like, if you're, if you're selling a human resources solutions to a corporation, they may think, well, what does this have to do with, we get new people, we hire people all the time, we're doing fine. You know, we hired three people last week.

Frank (01:36:28.357)
Yeah, not at the forefront. Yeah.

Chris Saunders (01:36:53.082)
We don't really need a revamp of our human resources. But when you dig in with it, you know, they didn't have an onboarding process. So it took extra long to train that person. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, when we caught when we when you last time, know, and you actually are losing people to this other company that has a better work culture. And you're also you don't have institutional

Frank (01:37:00.731)
Yeah, actually it did take us a while to get everyone up to speed. You know, not that you point that out.

Chris Saunders (01:37:16.974)
raises or you don't have all these other things that can actually aspire people to advancement and want to work harder. So there's lost productivity. So there are things that business owners might, and that's not all. Let's also not forget that along with that, if you have, your, your time will be freed up because you won't be putting out headaches, with personnel problems, which I imagine is probably taking up way too much of your time. Wouldn't you agree that dealing with personnel issues is probably taking too much of your time and you should be focused on big picture stuff.

And all of a sudden they're like, and I bring this up as an example because it's, an example, but you could apply that any type of business anywhere where it's not like, well, we want to invest in marketing and sales because we know the return on marketing and sales is going to make a lot of money. And it's like, well, yeah, but there are other things in your business that if you solve them, we'll wind up being more efficient as well. And sometimes those problems aren't obvious because they're not the biggest problem, but they're a problem. so.

part of a salesperson's job or a business job, a person's job is to find the problem. And like you said, the expose it, illuminate it, make it larger so that they know and see the problem and then give them a really easy solution that costs money. It's like, this is the solution. I do it for this much. And then this has taken off your plate. You don't have to worry about it anymore. The transformation is what you always sell.

Frank (01:38:31.025)
Yeah.

Frank (01:38:43.523)
Yeah, my brain just went to discounts and how that works, but I think that's a different topic.

Chris Saunders (01:38:51.854)
It is. don't actually recommend discounts and we could make that a whole. We could do a whole entire episode just on pricing strategies and thoughts around that too, by the way. I think that it may not be a long episode, but I think we could talk about it for like a good 30 minutes, 40 minutes.

Frank (01:39:01.937)
Yeah, because, I have I have quite the journey that I've been on pricing our visual services. It's yeah, but.

Chris Saunders (01:39:12.174)
Well, maybe we can do that next time as another episode. We'll just do a whole thing around like how to price projects products based on all the different products we've actually interacted with, because I think some people would find that interesting.

Frank (01:39:23.857)
Yeah, mean, especially especially as far as like a service or a product like, you know, that's a handmade or small business like the pricing and that is different from a bigger company.

Chris Saunders (01:39:34.744)
Yeah, and I have some good philosophies on how to price something, so.

Frank (01:39:38.169)
Yeah, I mean, I'd imagine you've been in sales for a while.

Well, this was really cool. I really liked hearing what you had to say and just kind of. Because I didn't know I didn't know what you were going to go on about.

Chris Saunders (01:39:56.034)
I didn't really know exactly what I wanted to go into, but I had some ideas that I'd written down that I think we wove in together into the conversation as principles of communication. And so, I mean, if you, we wanted to review some of the more important takeaways, what would, are some of the ones things that resonated with you on your side?

Frank (01:40:14.653)
The thing that really resonated with me was probably in very beginning just about listening. think that's a really important skill that not a lot of people really think about. They don't think about listening. think about like, like you said, where's my attention? Where do I want to put my attention right now? What's more interesting?

rather than thinking about how, like where is the interesting in this person that's right in front of me? Because everybody's fascinating. It blows my mind sometimes when I think about everybody has a life just as rich and deep, if not more, than mine. And I have been around in this body my entire life. I know a lot of stuff about my life. A lot of shit has happened in my life. But other people have also had that.

I'd love to learn about it, whatever they're willing to share.

Frank (01:41:13.617)
What about you?

Chris Saunders (01:41:14.542)
I think storytelling was a really big thing and teaching through storytelling because it captivates and having a solid, you know, point to your stories so that it resonates and it gets memorable for people I think is a big thing. So transformational stories is part of listening is what we talked about there. The idea of like elucidating transformational moments in people's lives and then having them tell that story is part of it.

Being committed to values not outcomes was another one. think is That was something I wrote down that I'm like, I definitely want to talk about that is don't know where but the the ability to yeah grounded in your example of what we were talking about with work I think was was really really useful and I will say hard one in terms of how to learn that that from my job. So

Frank (01:41:51.653)
You're welcome.

Frank (01:41:56.465)
You

Frank (01:42:07.567)
Man, haven't had my regular weekly therapy sessions for a while now. And I'm not talking about our podcast, Actual Therapy. And you know, I don't like having, I don't like treating a podcast like a therapy session, but I knew that it would come up today just because I haven't had my therapy sessions in a while and because we're talking about communication and it is on my mind a lot these days of how do I communicate with people at work?

getting under my skin.

Chris Saunders (01:42:39.566)
Mm-hmm.

Frank (01:42:41.617)
So it's funny, I thought you also might have something that would tie in. I was like, Chris will have some wisdom. I know he will. He's worked with a lot of people over the years.

Chris Saunders (01:42:51.736)
Yeah, definitely. I have screwed up a lot of times to make these insights, but I also won a lot of times by, but, and created some solid impact with people.

Frank (01:43:03.769)
You won. Can you just say what you mean by won like you won the argument?

Chris Saunders (01:43:08.36)
No, no, I just one with people is in like made an impact positively. They had lasting change in a positive way. They achieved something they didn't think was possible or they grew in some way out of a conversation or like an area that we worked on. I've done a lot of coaching is what I basically say. And when I say when it's from a perspective of coaching someone into into a result or a desired outcome. That's why I often think like therapy is

different than coaching. think therapy has its place and can be very, very useful in terms of.

Creating an understanding of self and a reflection of self. I think a lot of people need coaching though and because Understanding self and figuring out what are the problems is part of it? but then coaching is where we really get outside of self and get on to a purpose where those things that we used to be no longer hold us to who we're going to be and Coaching is how we kind of I think move from the therapeutic mind

into the into healthy mind in my mind, and it means, you know, making progress. There are versions of therapy like solution focused brief therapy, which is basically coaching with where you ask really intentional, powerful questions to move people towards certain outcomes. And it's very practical philosophy. I think stoicism is another area where people like practical philosophy for your life. It's similar. But like, I just put it under the conglomerate of coaching.

and many people don't just need therapy. In fact, most people don't need a lot there, but they just need a little coaching to get some things out of their life. I'll give you an example. I mess with people who say, I'm depressed. And I'm like, yeah, I'm doing therapy for my depression. And I'm like, why are you depressed? And then they go into a whole thing about what their life is like. I'm like, well, that's a reasonable response to how your life is. Your life sucks. You're depressed. That's why.

Chris Saunders (01:45:12.556)
Why does your therapist get you on doing anything to change those circumstances in your life? Because if you have no partner, you have very few friends, you're isolated, you don't really like your job and you're not doing anything to better yourself. I'd be feeling pretty freaking depressed too, but that's not my life because I did things that weren't that to get out of that. Right. And so a lot of people I think might need coaching to get out of whatever they're doing and move to a place where there's actual solutions.

I'm not talking about you, I'm just I've said I've seen this before with people and so in my old life I would often talk to people who were on who were like doing therapy and I'm like, well, let's talk about how we can coach you out of some of these things that are actually causing you to pay for a therapist right now. So yeah.

Frank (01:45:42.673)
Yeah, yeah.

Frank (01:45:56.013)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. There is definitely value there. I even when we spoke with Satine Phoenix, she helped to kind of highlight that difference of a coach versus a therapist, you know, that the value of having someone look at your life objectively, it's kind of like that friend you would go to for relationship advice. I'm like, God, I really want him to like me. Like, how do I do this? I just I keep doing this and that and this and that. they're like, you really keep fucking this up. Like you can't think clearly like

Here's what you gotta do. boom, boom, boom, boom.

Chris Saunders (01:46:25.868)
Yeah, yeah. Oftentimes it's amazing. I like if you're if you change things in your life, then your life starts to change, right? Like you change yourself and life changes. And so sometimes.

Frank (01:46:33.585)
Yeah. What was that moment for you, Chris, when that change happened?

Chris Saunders (01:46:40.014)
You know, there's been a lot of moments in my life, but when I've changed, when I've. Anytime something has changed, I can give you an example. There was a moment where I was with my coach and. There was a disdain for my lack of athleticism and desire to be fit and.

the what I was eating in terms of, you know, what my my week to week eating habits and stuff were. And then for me, looking at myself in mirror, not liking what I was seeing now, I could have gone to a therapy person and they might have told me, well, you know, you might just need to accept yourself more and you need to where, where does that come from? Why don't you love yourself just as you are? And reality was I was a fat fuck who was not doing well.

Frank (01:47:27.801)
Yeah, where does that come from?

Chris Saunders (01:47:36.744)
And I needed to do something about that. And my coach in his wisdom gave me some hard love and showed me the disdain he had for that level of thinking. And then I made some commitments. I changed who I was, who I became was a person who no longer drank mochas five to seven times a week loaded with sugar every morning with fat and all this sort of stuff. was the first thing I put in my body and I used to do it for years. So I gave it up.

I said, I'm not doing that. I am. I was eating one to three Delicio pizzas in a week because I was lazy and I didn't want to cook. And I thought the Lucio pizzas were delicious. And I think, I can handle it. But I was eating way more than I thought I was because it was easy. And I stopped. I said, no more Delicio pizzas, no more mochas. And then I just made a commitment to be a healthy person, which meant being active. And instead of like, I'm going to go to the gym three

times a week, it was no, no, I'm a healthy person. So from the rest of my life, I'm going to be pursuing activity, whether that's. Jimming or disc golfing or running or anything else like that. When I changed and shifted who I was to being a healthy person and it wasn't this like temporary goal I was going to do for a year or six months or like five times a week, it then I surrendered to that goal because it was a new person that I was going to be.

and I mourned the loss of who I was, but I gave them up. And that's how you make long-lasting, tangible change, which is the moment that I changed.

Frank (01:49:17.327)
Nice. Yeah. It's powerful having a coach, guess. My therapist does a pretty good job of giving me perspective, but I'd say actually the people we interview have been great coaches for me, indirectly, indirectly. I'm not going to them for one-on-one coaching, but boy, they give some great.

Chris Saunders (01:49:35.662)
Mm.

Frank (01:49:44.555)
Well, I mean, I get to ask them the questions I want to ask in the first place.

Chris Saunders (01:49:47.47)
And there's the ability for them to give you answers that you may like or not like about what they did. And it's like, well, that's why they're successful. They did all that shit I didn't do. Right. mean, success leaves clues. That's why we interview people. And we know that when we dig in, we're going to find those clues. And if you're listening, we're going to find them for you. So.

Frank (01:49:53.658)
you

Frank (01:49:58.255)
Yeah, yeah, it's that humble pie sometimes.

Frank (01:50:05.839)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Saunders (01:50:13.73)
And if you want to get coaching, talk to us. I do coaching on the side. So reach out and we can talk about coaching you up. If you feel like coaching might be beneficial for you over to say therapy. yeah.

Frank (01:50:26.959)
Yeah. And if you want to reach out to us and just chat and you want to and something in here resonated with you and you want to talk more about it, you can always reach out to us on social media.

Chris Saunders (01:50:36.642)
Yeah, Frank is the therapist. I'm the coach. He'll listen to your it is right. If you need therapy. No, I can't. We can't say it that way. But if you're looking for something.

Frank (01:50:39.691)
It's so true. So true.

Yeah, I am not certi- I'm not certified by any means, but I have been through enough therapy in my own life to know how to do it.

Chris Saunders (01:50:52.524)
Yeah. But between the two of us, you would be the therapist and I would be the person tell the coaching them out of whatever it is. So anyway, I'm sure between the two of us, we could figure out how to get you where you want to go. Let's put it that way.

Frank (01:50:57.507)
Yes.

Frank (01:51:01.745)
Thanks

Yeah. You know, that's actually an idea. People do want that help.

Chris Saunders (01:51:10.7)
Yeah, of course. mean, obviously that's what we, that's what we're doing here with the community. mean, I mean, I, I, yeah, or one or two, but I've done, I've done that kind of thing on the side and it's great. I mean, I've done it for, for free with a lot of my friends just because a lot of times he's need a little coaching. but also if somebody was willing to pay for it or has a budget, maybe we can do some free stuff with people just to get a few testimonials. So if you're looking for that, I'd be down to, I mean,

Frank (01:51:16.41)
I mean, I mean, on one or one on two.

Frank (01:51:37.702)
Yeah.

Chris Saunders (01:51:39.948)
I'll tell you people reach out to me on nerd for nerf Instagram and ask me questions. I love that because then I wind up, here's some ideas like this. And I've had ongoing back and forth with people about their business and them, because it's usually the business is a reflection of you. So if there's a problem with the business, I might have to hold the mirror up to nature, you know, and show you who is the person that's creating the business might have to change a little bit in order for the business to get going. And,

That's a that can be tough conversation for people. That's why I like to people pay for it a little bit is just like you have some skin in the game. So there's some commitment. Well, you got to be committed because if you're just interested, it's not really worth being coached, you know. Yeah, but if you're committed to change, then, you know, put some money and skin in the game, it's it's actually possible to to change pretty quickly with with a coach who's going to help you be accountable, but also really

Frank (01:52:17.207)
Yeah, they get committed.

Frank (01:52:24.229)
Yeah, it's not worth anyone's time at that point.

Chris Saunders (01:52:39.086)
keep you in an inspired state, keep you seeing the person you want to be, keep you re-evaluating tactics that work for you. Because sometimes it's not about, you know, this works or doesn't work, just the effectiveness of your strategies. And those strategies can be shifted.

Frank (01:52:54.289)
Yeah, effectiveness efficiencies. Yeah.

Chris Saunders (01:53:00.76)
So check out the show notes and we'll put a couple links down there if people want to find out more.

Frank (01:53:05.765)
Yeah, and as always Chris.

Chris Saunders (01:53:08.408)
Keep it nerdy.

Frank (01:53:12.401)
Shall we do a hook?

Chris Saunders (01:53:14.028)
Yeah, what do you think the hook for this one is going to be? What are we talking nerdy about today?

Frank (01:53:18.117)
I liked what you said. know, leveling up, leveling up communication skills. Also, I think this is a two parter.

Chris Saunders (01:53:31.276)
Yeah, or like a here's half of it. Here's the rest on Patreon.

Frank (01:53:34.671)
Yeah. Or that. Yeah, that's true.

Chris Saunders (01:53:37.87)
Yeah. So I might just, I might, might pull some of the gold nuggets from the beginning in the end and like, just see if, you know, and throw the end in there. I'll have to listen back to it and see, but yeah, I better, yeah. We got to do the hook. what did you mean? Like attain Epic level communication skills in under an hour? No. Yeah. Yeah.

Frank (01:53:44.528)
Mm-hmm.

Frank (01:53:51.097)
Yeah, the hook.

Frank (01:53:58.231)
In two hours. I like the idea of level up or reach the next level. We didn't really have a finite number of talking points.

Chris Saunders (01:54:12.16)
No, no, I think it's more just like, yeah, yeah, I want to talk about some of the best principles of communication that have served me or something like that. Or I want to talk about leveling up communication skills for business and life.

Frank (01:54:14.459)
principles.

Frank (01:54:27.779)
Yeah, yeah, there we go. Yeah, that one. All right. Chris, what are we talking about today?

Chris Saunders (01:54:29.838)
All right, let's try that.

Chris Saunders (01:54:35.576)
What are we talking nerdy about today?

Frank (01:54:37.621)
thanks. Right.

Chris, what are we talking nerdy about today?

Chris Saunders (01:54:43.36)
leveling up your communication skills for business and life.

Frank (01:54:50.737)
Awesome!

Chris Saunders (01:54:54.05)
Hit the theme!

Frank (01:54:55.345)
You

Chris Saunders (01:54:58.478)
All right. I like that. I don't know. I like hit the theme.

Frank (01:54:59.825)
Okay.

Frank (01:55:04.629)
You do want this to be the like, God, like those old, those night shows or those talk shows where it's just like, everyone was just kind of dancing and the cameraman's like zooming in and out and rotating it.

Chris Saunders (01:55:18.338)
Yeah. Welcome to late night on Thursday's sensual soiree. We're here chilling at the Vibe Cafe live in person with a couple of cool cats, Chris and Frank. I don't know if you guys ever.

Frank (01:55:24.581)
Whoa. Whoa.

Frank (01:55:34.415)
Yeah. Hey, hey kids. Keep it cool. Keep it cool. Stay away from drugs. As always.

Chris Saunders (01:55:40.812)
no, we never know if it's Freaky Frank or Franklin... the... Frankie the Freak, or is it Frankie the Sinatra? We never know which one is coming up at Sensual Thursdays.

Frank (01:55:44.849)
Ooh, sensual and freaky coming up here.

Frank (01:55:59.153)
Eww, God. Thirsty Thursdays. That's, it's just double meaning.

Chris Saunders (01:56:01.164)
No, it's yeah. There's a well, I just I'm just thinking back to these those old like fifties TV shows where it would be like, you're just joining us at the party. We're going to have a talk show right live straight from the party. Like and it would be like they would zoom out, go through the party. People would be like having social drinks makes it feel like it is. And then they'd be like two people just chilling with a glass and a martini and they'd be on TV. But yeah, but it's like

Frank (01:56:27.825)
And a pipe.

Chris Saunders (01:56:30.924)
Welcome to this. is Tuesdays. We've got a couple of great guests coming through the party today. You know? Yeah, exactly.

Frank (01:56:34.382)
yeah, glad you could make it. Here we are at the Soiree downtown.

Chris Saunders (01:56:40.878)
Yeah, no, I always thought like that that was always like if I were gonna wreck a talk show I'd want some sort of like cheesy and classy like that would be super fun

Frank (01:56:50.134)
welcome to today's fireside chat. I'm Franklin Delano Roosevelt, your president.

Chris Saunders (01:56:55.576)
God, I hate the fireside chat idea. It's just like so overplayed in digital marketing. So overplayed. I hate it.

Frank (01:57:01.617)
didn't happen to see you there. I'm just relaxing in my cigar coat with a cigar and a glass of scotch.

Chris Saunders (01:57:12.174)
We got this cardboard cut out of a fire here, so we call it a fire, fire side chat. Like we're all sitting around the fire side singing Kumbaya with a guitar, dude. No, man. I all that shit.

Frank (01:57:15.078)
Yeah.

Frank (01:57:24.781)
I actually wanted to do that with my own thing when I was originally considering doing like a Joseph Campbell show where I just talk about stuff from Joseph Campbell's book and and I was like, okay, so today, you know, and like you could hear the clinking of the ice cubes in my glass as I'm like every now and then. Yeah, every now and then taking a sip and then talking and nerding out. Yeah, Scott. that's a great name. Scotch and Campbell.

Chris Saunders (01:57:46.112)
Scotch glass, yeah, yeah. Scotch and Campbell, that's what we call it. See, you should have just.

Frank (01:57:54.575)
I didn't even think about that. God damn it. No, there's nobody that looks for that content. So there's like five people. So I was like, that's not a big enough audience.

Chris Saunders (01:58:01.186)
No. a frank conversation about Joseph Campbell. Did you think about that one? God, yeah.

Frank (01:58:08.025)
I, I, yes. No, I did. I did. there's a lot of iterations about just being Frank. And so I ended up choosing one that wasn't taken and it was to be frankly.

It's not good.

Chris Saunders (01:58:24.269)
That's not frankly isn't even a thing. It's not a thing. God. God. Is that what we're doing with Nerberner? I hope not. People hear it and they say it's good. And I'm like, when's the society going to get it and use it in the nomenclature?

Frank (01:58:27.383)
It's not, but I was like, I'm going to make it I think.

Frank (01:58:34.501)
People respond better than... Yes.

No, yes, no one's no one's responded that way to to be frankly, everyone's like, huh.

Chris Saunders (01:58:45.452)
No, dude, I'll tell you straight up. That's awful. That's this is your coach speaking abort.

Frank (01:58:49.05)
Hahaha!

Frank (01:58:52.689)
boy. Well, I did. I didn't even release anything. I didn't record anything. I wrote a bunch of stuff.

Chris Saunders (01:58:59.918)
I think Scotch and Campbell could be a great fun little side project. Like I'd record five episodes with you of Scotch and Campbell or whatever it is.

Frank (01:59:04.145)
That's fun.

Frank (01:59:08.495)
We could, that would be fun actually if we just like randomly pick, hey Chris, tell me a number between one and 30 and we go with one of those pages. All right, now I'm gonna pick a paragraph.

Chris Saunders (01:59:17.622)
Here's what I think would be fun to do with it. If we were going to do it, we'd have to invest and we could write it all off. But here's what we do. We just go off to some place where we're going to film and we set it up. So like we rent an Airbnb somewhere in the mountains or somewhere nice, right? Where it's got a great backdrop. You bring some camera gear. We bring our microphones. We set everything up and then we do a show.

in this place and we record five or 10 episodes for this show over the course of a weekend and it's just done and then it's just like, all right, now we added the whole thing together and then it just released it as like this thing, like do it in one weekend. So that way it doesn't take any more space in your brain. And it's like, Hey, I wish I'd done that. You did it. It's done. And it'll be fun to do.

Frank (02:00:08.635)
That's a nice idea.

Chris Saunders (02:00:10.21)
And then we sip scotch while we're doing it because it'd be fun. then the podcast would get, you know, we could do some prep or whatever around it.

Frank (02:00:16.281)
It starts to turn into drunk history a little bit.

Chris Saunders (02:00:18.99)
doesn't have to, but I think Scott, think, yeah, absolutely. Like bring a few, I have big ice cubes and like have some classy, have a couple like each episode. It's like, what are you sipping today? You know, like, and it's like, you could absolutely have like four or five different Scotches talk about Scotch. And then you'd be like, you know, the mythos, the myth of whatever, like you can talk about, like I have, I don't know, I haven't read a lot of us, Joseph Campbell. So I'd need a little, yeah, it's dense, right? So like that's what

Frank (02:00:24.985)
Yeah.

Frank (02:00:38.479)
Yes.

Frank (02:00:43.277)
It's hard to read a lot of it.

I I would, I have stuff prepared. Yeah, it could be pretty cool. I haven't touched it in years, but I could easily review all my notes. Cause I wrote like a plan, a structure of course, but I wrote a plan.

Chris Saunders (02:00:59.682)
Yeah. I honestly think I could probably, I could probably speak to whatever you're talking about without doing too much research and ask you questions and you could speak to the Campbell nature of it or whatever. And we could bring in examples or whatever, and then just edit it together. It'd be like a quick video series on YouTube and it would, but it would like, but high quality camera, you know, something that looks nice. mean, high quality could be one of our iPhones on a fucking tripod too, but it's, it's pretty good. But like you do that.

Frank (02:01:09.465)
Yeah. Yeah.

Frank (02:01:25.669)
The phones are pretty good, yeah.

Chris Saunders (02:01:28.802)
Just get a nice location with like kind of a nice backdrop and then sip different scotches like that.

Frank (02:01:32.177)
We should do it when we are going to a con and just go a little bit early, like a couple days early.

Chris Saunders (02:01:41.666)
Yeah, a couple days early to a con. Ideally somewhere. Yeah, like that has, you know, one of those like like some with, you know, like mahogany wood or something, you know, like that kind of thing could be really cool. And just like, yeah, do that. And the beautiful thing about this is my production company can write all that shit off because I write off filming in places like that. And it would be awesome.

Frank (02:01:51.865)
Yes.

Frank (02:02:04.937)
we could do it. We could also. OK, it's not exactly we can't write it off, but we could do a lower cost version here because I have a fireplace.

Chris Saunders (02:02:14.264)
Where? yeah, you could. mean, it's not as fun. It's not as fun. That's what the point is. We're going to have way more fun doing it. anyway.

Frank (02:02:17.711)
Yeah, for like, I know it's not as fun, but...

I know, know, I know, but we could easily set that up here. Anyway, so there's a lower MVP, minimum viable product there.

Chris Saunders (02:02:33.014)
Yeah, I just I just I don't think it's something where you want to have seasons of it, but you could absolutely do one of these like, hey, we'll put it on. It's like a professor of production, just like a weird nerdy passion. Boom. Five episodes, 10 episodes done. It's like.

Frank (02:02:37.776)
Mm-hmm.

Frank (02:02:46.563)
It's what it would be like our D &D thing that we did. Or the D &D movie.

Chris Saunders (02:02:49.358)
Yeah, produce it. It'd be great. Yeah, yeah, not that dissimilar. Just do something like that. the content over like a weekend. It creates some structure where it's like, we gotta get five episodes or something done. So, you know, we bang out two or three in the morning. But then like, all right, now we can start drinking scotch. Yeah.

Frank (02:02:55.801)
A one-off, yeah, couple, five-off or whatever.

Frank (02:03:09.617)
Then we're just drunk all day.

Chris Saunders (02:03:11.726)
Yeah, take a little break, go to hot tub, just relax, talk a little bit, figure out what is it and then do another couple in the evening. I know. then it's all right. Cool. We got to there. And then next day, same thing. Two couple in the morning, two couple in the evening. You know, we could be fun.

Frank (02:03:17.328)
Frank (02:03:23.907)
I'm sold. Yeah. All right. Well, yeah, let's wrap it up. Or we'll stop recording.

Chris Saunders (02:03:30.08)
shit, I better stop.