Show Transcript
Chris Saunders (01:01:26.542)First principle of 12 rules for life is stand up straight with your shoulders back. If you don't feel confident, you will start to feel confident by changing your physiology. Tony Robbins teaches that at his conferences is basically riles people up into feeling confident that they can do anything by making them move and move their physiology in such a way that powerful, confident people would. And it's amazing.
Frank (01:01:40.859)
Right.
Chris Saunders (01:01:55.628)
the impact that has. Sometimes I will freestyle rap songs that I know that I've written because it makes me feel more confident before I go do other things.
Frank (01:01:57.391)
Yeah, mobility, super.
Frank (01:02:10.329)
is that why? I have noticed like a couple times you kind of do it under your breath when I've noticed it, but there's times that we've been out at events and we're not like around people or anything and I might notice you do that. And I'm kind of like, huh, that's part of his ritual, I guess.
Chris Saunders (01:02:26.53)
Yeah, well, I think that when you can do something nobody else can do, it does give you confidence. I was with a I was at a mastermind one time and it was there's this lady who trains dogs and is one of the most powerful dog agility trainers in the world, like world champion level person. And when they were talking about. How do you maintain being in a room with?
really powerful people when they've say build businesses 10 times the size or had impacts that are 10 times the size than that you are. And it wasn't talking definitely about her, but she perked up in that moment out of this room and said, they can't, they can't train dogs. And it was just like this really simple, like principle of like, Hey, I don't care what they could do. They can't do what I fricking do. It's just like that attitude of, you know,
Frank (01:03:21.849)
You
Chris Saunders (01:03:24.694)
And so now when I like, cause I worked very hard to be able to functionally do any freestyle rap and to write rap music. It's not an easy skill and it did not come easily for me. And I don't even want to pretend that I'm like at the level of somebody who is doing it professionally. But when I do that for me, I feel more confident about who I am because it's like, I know this person. I don't care how much money they've made. I don't care how much they've done.
They cannot do what I'm what I'm doing right now because I know they haven't spent two, three, four years in their room doing it. Like it's just confidence in that way because you've built some skill that other people don't have.
Frank (01:04:04.357)
This is touching on, because you're reminding me, I'm loaded with stories today. You're reminding me of when I was younger, one of the first acting camps I ever did. And so you're like, you know, you're like 10. So they're not really going to teach you how to do Shakespearean necessarily. But they essentially the exercise was, hey, what is something that what's a language like? Not not literally language, but what is a
What is verbiage? What are terms? What is a subject matter that you know so well that you could speak in terms that many other people don't understand what you're saying when you say it? And at the time for me, it was piano playing. Like, you know, I listed off some terms like arpeggios and, you know, an F minor to an A diminished and stuff. And she said, you know, all of you have something special that makes you powerful. You have knowledge that makes you strong.
And she was going in that vein. And I remember in that moment, like as a kid, that was a foundational moment from a core memory, if you will. And it taught me that we all have something unique. Like you're saying, you know, it is that there is that confidence that we get from that thing that we do really fucking well. You know, we all have something we do fucking well. And that kind of ties back to earlier when I was like, what do you, you know, asking a person, what do you like to do? What do you like to do for fun?
Chris Saunders (01:05:25.174)
Yeah, and I think people will. It. That's why it's important to be doing something that isn't just to be developing a skill, that's why it's important to be developed. That's why it's important to be developing a skill in something that you are proud of. And it can be anything. It could be, you know, music, sure. Art, it could be.
professional video gaming like high level. Some people could use that. you know, I can talk to girls, I can, or, or men, like, I don't know, whatever. you can, or you could say, I can make beats. I'm an incredible decorator. I'm an incredible cleaner. Like there are all sorts of things you can be game-changingly good at that don't necessarily have to do with your business, but because you're good at them, you can draw on those things to feel confident.
Frank (01:05:55.429)
Right?
Chris Saunders (01:06:20.704)
in the moment because I guarantee people you're sitting across from or, you know, talking with or trying to sell, there's a lot of them that can't do things that you can do. And there's a way to draw that, confidence up into yourself from doing hard things that you've built skill in.
Frank (01:06:39.439)
Yeah, we're we're talking about, you know, it's funny. We're I don't know if you've noticed this, man, but we've talked about how to be a good listener. And the kind of things to ask or that you could ask, and we've also talked about how to be confident when you're speaking and and or how you can feel comfortable speaking and how confidence ties into that. And I think we've actually been
Talking about each person in each position in the conversation whether you're the listener and you're asking the questions or either person talking And how do you feel comfortable talking? And that's interesting to me. We've kind of covered both sides of the interaction of the conversation I mean if you planned that nice work, I just caught on but otherwise
Chris Saunders (01:07:32.735)
No, I don't plan.
Frank (01:07:34.413)
That's true, you don't. I'm the planner. I'm the structure guy.
Chris Saunders (01:07:39.298)
funny I think I think things emerge out of things just emerge that way I wanted to talk about one more I want to talk about a couple more things maybe but one of the things I wanted to talk about was
Frank (01:07:47.974)
Yeah.
Chris Saunders (01:07:59.502)
A principal that really helped one of my old sales managers in a time when he really needed it. we had this program where people could run a summertime office, but they would, go out, find a lease for an office for four months, recruit a bunch of students, create a summertime team. And then these are usually students who are running the office and they go back to school at the end, having made a bunch of money and created an amazing experience. Right. That's the idea.
But it is not easy. You're working long hours, long days, and you're convincing people to sell knives. So already it's a pretty big uphill battle. There was a manager that I trained and he went out to run his branch office. His was Spencer. And when he went out, his first month, May, which is a big month in
Canada for recruiting students. Okay, I know you guys get out sometime in June, but May is when everyone gets out in Canada. So this is what we call the gold. It's the area where every student's looking for a summer job and you got to try and capture as many of them onto your team as possible. And Spencer went through that month and he had a rough training group where not a lot of people showed up. They didn't really sell much. They weren't really good. And then like he did the same thing. He ran four training groups and
I think at the end of that month, he was the last place branch office in all of Canada. Like he had sold the very least and had had the worst start out of everybody. So he went to a conference and at that conference, we had a bunch of speakers and one of the speakers talked about the difference between being a thermometer and being a thermostat.
And so I've talked about this before on other people's podcasts, but I haven't really talked about it here on our podcast. And so I thought I'd mention that because the difference between being a thermometer versus a thermostat, what is the difference, Frank? You know the difference, right? Yeah.
Frank (01:09:56.963)
Yeah, thermometer tells the temperature in the room, thermostat sets the temperature in
Chris Saunders (01:10:01.432)
Yeah. And so you want to be the thermostat because in communication, I think a good way to look at it is be the thermostat because like you at this dinner party, when like when you're going to a conference, when you walk into a sales conversation, you don't want to just take the temperature of the room. You want to be the temperature of the room.
You are an impact player. You change things when you get in there, you bring your energy and that could be through your enthusiasm, through your confidence, through your ability to make people laugh and do something unexpected, break them from their regular pattern. So now they're living on your vibe. Musicians do this, right? That's what their job is, is to change your state, to be the thermostats in the room. You know, same with great art. Art, great art changes the temperature in the room. You know, a great podcast, throw that on.
You change the temperature of the room and you're a thermostat. So Spencer learned this lesson at this conference. And I'll tell you, he went from being the last place to being the number three branch in all of Canada within two months. And I asked him after the end of the first month, after that is like, what's, what was the big difference? He's like, you know what? I heard that thermostat thing that people were talking about. And then when I I realized I was the one who had the influence over what was happening.
and I could make a difference with those people. So instead of letting them guide me with their energy, I started guiding them with my energy. And my energy was actually so powerful as to bring an office from last place to third place.
Frank (01:11:38.981)
Hmm. Yeah, I I've I've heard that before and I and I love the concept. I do struggle sometimes with it. OK, so the times that it makes sense to me is like you said, like at a dinner party, you know, I can engage. can set the temperature in this, you know, so to speak. But there's times when and I'm curious what you think and maybe well, yeah, I'm curious what you think on this. The.
I work with people who have strong personalities and typically salespeople, know, those salespeople and their personalities, and they are very fixated on their way of doing things. And that's part of what makes them a great salesperson is that they can convince you. And if you're on the fence, they will tell you all the reasons that why what they think is the is the right way to do it.
Even if they actually don't really know what the fuck they're talking about, they will just say, this is the way it should be done. This is the right way. And you're like, I'm not going to turn this into a argument, you know, and I feel like these kinds of people are in every workplace, whether they're in sales or not, even on podcasts, but it's hard to, it's hard to set the temperature when there's somebody else who is so fixated on the temperature being their temperature.
Chris Saunders (01:12:55.274)
even on podcasts.
Chris Saunders (01:13:08.056)
Yeah.
Frank (01:13:08.859)
How do you handle that? Do you just say, fuck this room, I'm gonna make, I'm gonna be the thermostat in a different room.
Chris Saunders (01:13:17.548)
You know, it's it's not always about battling with them because I think it can be that way. You're taught. I think that there are the reason why those people are being the thermostat is they are aligned to some form of value or principle that they have deemed an immovable object. And so it's very challenging to move that person because.
They are aligned to a value, not aligned to an outcome. And what I'm thinking you're experiencing in that situation is your desire to be attached to an outcome versus a value. And so one of the most powerful things I've learned in communication is to always be committed to your values and not outcomes. So if I'm talking to someone and they tell me, you know,
I don't need this thing that you're selling me or I don't want to do it this way. And I keep pushing the same thing. No, we got to do it this way. Do it this way. Do it this way. Do it this way. That's going to be much harder because I'm you're communicating to that person that you're committed to an outcome versus a value and values of things like truth or service or win win or, you know, customer needs or honesty, long term benefit. Those are values to be aligned to.
And so instead of being committed to like, want to do it this way or this outcome be committed to providing like, Hey, I want this to be a win-win experience for everyone involved. So here's what I would say would be a win for me on this situation. And this would, would this be a win for you if we do it this way? So it's, often about alignment and being aligned to a value and not an outcome. So it's not a battle.
about a principle, like I'm committed to having the best customer experience for our people. So since we're all aligned to that, here's my concern around it. And aligning to a value that is outside of yourself that all of you agree is important is actually way easier to then be this thermostat for that room, moving it in that direction. I'm committed to sharing my goals and looking for opportunities everywhere. So.
Chris Saunders (01:15:38.22)
That's why I'm so focused and working so hard right now to achieve my goals, you know? And I think, and that's why I would love it if you told 10 to 15 people about our podcast, you know, like, because we're trying to build something bigger than that. And we're really committed to our goals. Like just those types of things can allow you to be the thermostat a little bit more instead of having to, it's not an outcome that you're committed to. It's a value that everyone's committed to.
Frank (01:16:04.593)
It's an interesting point because yeah, I'll admit there are some times where I get fixated on, this should be this way. And someone says, no, or they say, that's a waste of time. Or the other day, someone said, why worry about that? Why put the time into it? And in my mind, it's because I have a level of, I have a standard.
And I want my work to look good, not just because it's mine and I have my name attached to it. In fact, I usually don't have my name attached to anything. It's more so I want to grow. I want to provide the customer a great end result that they love so they come back. And in order for me to feel like I've accomplished that, I have to put in the work and the time. And when someone tells me, no,
That's silly. You know, that doesn't make sense. Sure, I will ask myself, is the juice worth the squeeze? Is the effort worth it? Or is there diminishing returns here? And I usually ask myself that, but when someone says, no, that's essentially telling me that's dumb that you're worrying about that. It's like, what are you saying? But I'm hearing that rather than fixating on
having a great product, it's more so, hey, I'm all about providing the customer more than what they want so that they come back. That's why I'm doing this.
Chris Saunders (01:17:41.506)
Yeah, so for example, like there's a couple things in there. One is I think that you as a person are committed to providing great work that is a reflection of you because you see your work as a reflection of you.
Frank (01:17:56.455)
less so now than I used to.
Chris Saunders (01:17:59.022)
100 % I get it. It's less so but I think that if you wanted to say convince people like and that's a question you have to ask yourself like because when it comes to say Us on our podcast and what we're doing like I think this is an outlet for us to be able to do stuff at a higher level that we really want and do the standards we want it to be that's that's partly why we do it when we're working in another company and Because you know we all deal with this sometimes where what we believe is the right way to do it in the standard would
is different than what other people will consider it. But if you can align why you're thinking about it to a company goal or to a value that they hold dear, you might be able to convince them differently about why this is essential. So it's like, actually, the reasoning I'm thinking about this is I think about the customer experience here. This is an opportunity for us to give them a level 10 experience where they will not only just like it, they might tell their friends about it or other companies.
And then that actually will provide us with more business down the road, or it will also, you know, ensure that they'll come back to us because I know for a fact other places won't do this since it's not easy, but I'm willing to. And that's why I'm bringing it up to you because I think this could be great for long-term and market. and you know, setting ourselves apart in the market. For example, like if I had to sell an idea, I might align it to a value that I know they have so that they at least know I'm not doing this because I don't know any better.
but because I actually know where we're all trying to go. And I think about it strategically from that standpoint.
Frank (01:19:30.457)
Yeah, finding those, finding those shared goals. Like, yeah, you said align, you used that word and yeah, absolutely. Finding those situations where you align.
Chris Saunders (01:19:36.59)
Well, and then you also might find out that the person who is telling you not to waste your time on that might say, well, yes, but one of our values right now is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And your energy should be put into that because if you're putting it here right now, then it's not on this. And this is actually what really matters. And this matters from a macro perspective. So sorry, but no. And that at least gives you the respect of like, hey,
I appreciate your thinking about this from your perspective and that level 10 experience. However, this over here is actually what's really important deadlines or whatever. Like we actually are a service based company that really needs this done now instead of 10, you know, two weeks from now or whatever. And so there might be things on that side of it that they can explain and then you understand differently what the values are. And I've had those situations before in my company and in my old company, it just, it's just part of being in business is you have to learn where.
Where are the values of the people and what is important and prioritized?
Frank (01:20:38.223)
Yeah, figuring out it's been so much of, so I just hit the five year mark at my company, which is crazy for me. I haven't worked at one place for five years.
Chris Saunders (01:20:52.238)
That's good. I've only ever worked more than 10 years places. That's crazy.
Frank (01:20:55.953)
Okay, well, I've had a lot of different jobs, a lot of different bosses, and I'm sticking at this place because I like my boss, even though I don't always agree. He always does explain like you just demonstrated why we should do it his way. And at the end of the day, it's his company. I'm to do what he says. But even if I don't agree, but there's also so many times where after I go along with what he says, I'm like, fuck, he was right.
God damn. And eating that humble pie is so annoying. It's so annoying because it's like, right. Okay. You know, those, those experiences are, I think they, I think they help us grow. I think they help us become more well-rounded, more open-minded, but God, can they feel like punishing or
punching bag after a while. It's just like, my God, I'd love to just have a week where my ideas were the right or the best ideas.
Chris Saunders (01:22:03.562)
Here's a another principle of communication that I think is maybe a learning opportunity for us right now Is don't take things personally and so one of the biggest things I have seen and and People is when they take things personally The only person who tends to suffer is is you right the person who gets offended right or thinks it's about them and so
I like to remind people nobody makes you feel anything. You only make yourself feel things based on the story we tell ourselves about what a person said, did, or what happened. So things like this where maybe an idea doesn't get, taken or maybe I would just ask, what is the story you're telling yourself about that? Was it because is there things you're saying about that that are making it a story that is not
It may not be at all because it wasn't a good idea or that you're not capable of coming with good ideas, right? I think it might be just there are potentially other stories at play here that need to take priority because it's not your company, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Frank (01:23:17.265)
Sure. I mean, you're right. And I hate it, but I have heard so many times in my life, don't take it so personally. It's just so annoying.
Chris Saunders (01:23:29.998)
Well, let me ask you, what's on the other side of not taking it personally? What's the opposite of that?
Frank (01:23:34.969)
It's not as easy of a switch to just stop doing.
Chris Saunders (01:23:39.116)
No, no, I know. I know. know. know. I'm not but I just want to ask what is the opposite for you of not taking a person of taking it personally?
Frank (01:23:48.069)
The opposite of taking it personally would be probably apathy and not caring.
Chris Saunders (01:23:54.368)
Yeah, see, and that's not who you are. So I think you might need to change the definition. So like, of the, what's the opposite of, of, of taking something personally is not not caring and apathy, right? What's the opposite of it or what could be the opposite of it instead of that, right?
Frank (01:24:02.796)
of.
Frank (01:24:21.403)
being a machine.
Chris Saunders (01:24:23.286)
No, that's the exact, that's the same thing as apathy and not caring.
Frank (01:24:24.785)
I'll just have AI help me out with that. You're getting at something, I feel, and I'm not entirely sure without some in-depth reflection here.
Chris Saunders (01:24:41.912)
Let's just ask chat GPT right now. What is the opposite of taking something personally?
Frank (01:24:47.473)
or too seriously, or no, that personally is good.
Chris Saunders (01:24:51.85)
Mm-hmm. So there's two things. There's you can either detach yourself emotionally or not care or you can view it objectively.
Frank (01:25:05.113)
Yeah, that's no, that's fair, man. That is actually I have gotten that advice in the past and I do use it sometimes but it's Sometimes sometimes I just forget
Chris Saunders (01:25:13.07)
Yeah, and I mean I'm not trying to turn this into a therapy session or some stuff like that But I was just I just wanted to reflect that back because I think a lot of people often Do have like what when we're struggling with something like that It's usually because of some story we're telling ourselves and it's like if if they don't like the story or they don't like the thing I've came up with I'm offended and you know, have to care because if I don't care then I am you know,
Then I don't care and then I have apathy and that's like and I can't be that person because there's some evil around that too Whereas it doesn't have to go all that way. It can be just if something doesn't Work for me. It could just be you know an objective look that that wasn't a match or there's a there's something there where it doesn't have to be personal it's just This person was looking at it objectively versus, you know, I have apathy. It doesn't mean I don't care about anything. It just means that
And when I look at it, that some of these things need to be looked at objectively. And, you know, I'm glad I care about it, but they maybe don't.
Frank (01:26:20.665)
Yeah, I mean it helps to care a lot when you do a creative art form or a creative work. Yeah, because you're like, at least this is what I tell myself. When I care a lot about, I want to get the right angle. I want to get the right lighting because I love the feeling when I look at the screen and I go, fuck yeah, I got it. That is so cool. Even if the client doesn't care nearly as much as I do, it's the satisfaction I get from my work.
Chris Saunders (01:26:24.864)
It does. It makes it better.
Frank (01:26:49.721)
which is what makes me like to keep doing it. But yeah, there is an aspect of, I could look at that objectively.
Chris Saunders (01:26:57.855)
Or even just like, it's okay if they don't care about it because I care about it.
Frank (01:27:02.925)
Yeah, that's yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Chris Saunders (01:27:05.068)
Yeah. And so, and if they knew what they, that's why they're hiring you is you care. So like, it's not a bad thing that, that, you know, that you care so much. It's actually a great thing. But then, you know, that's where, that's where if you, the fact that they don't care shouldn't be surprising is I guess the way I would look at it.
Frank (01:27:26.393)
Yeah, it definitely it's great for doing the work by myself, but it isn't great for those interpersonal dynamics sometimes, which is what we've been talking about.
Chris Saunders (01:27:37.612)
Yeah. Well, I'm just trying to give some ideas of where, cause there's, there are the interpersonal is always where that, where it is, right? Like where one person cares more about something than another person cares about something. And, you know, sometimes in our relationships, like, you know, my girl, I'm going to go see, I just bought tickets to see corn and system of a down in New York city. it's going to be crazy. and
Frank (01:27:49.403)
You
Frank (01:27:57.615)
oooohhhh shit
Chris Saunders (01:28:02.818)
This is the only time I'm going to be able to see those two beds probably ever together. It's going to be incredible. And, we're going to go down there. Now I bought two tickets because I know I'm not going to go on my own. wanted to share an experience with someone. Does she care at all where we sit? Does she care at all about seeing these bet? Not super into system of a downer corn. She probably couldn't name one of their songs, at least not corn. she probably knows a few system sounds. So, so the point is like, but,
Frank (01:28:29.755)
Sure.
Chris Saunders (01:28:33.272)
Does do I take that personally because she doesn't care or do I just appreciate that she cares enough about me to go along with me? Right. And so so the way I look at it like that, you know, and this is how it works with any sort of dynamic relationships and stuff is that there's always going to be someone who's caring more about it. And there things I've been to with her where, you know, it's not my thing, but I know it's her thing. So I care a lot about her. So I jump in and and be
Frank (01:28:43.972)
Yeah.
Chris Saunders (01:29:03.246)
and be excited about it and be in it and, and, be, be in it too, because I think that that's what, where you can bring that care. like you care about your client. And so that can translate over to caring about the work they want you to create, or you care about the company. So that can translate over to caring about, you know, what the boss wants you to do. And that's where things I know generally win, right? Like that's why you do it, but your care.
is actually what's given you all that power, but it's also causing you to have that distress. So keep that in mind that those two things are great. Just realize where you're putting your care matters.
Frank (01:29:37.634)
Yeah.
Frank (01:29:45.763)
It does. Yeah. mean, if for people that care about their work, it does create this new sub journey. It's a sub quest on your journey of, OK, I don't want to lose this ability of care because it's a powerful tool on my journey. But I also have to learn how to wrestle with this power. It is like I wouldn't. I'd say it's like a powerful artifact. It's a powerful tool relic, but you.
don't want to lose it. You don't want to just toss it away. And it's also hard because it's part of you. But you do have to learn for myself. I have to learn how to wrestle with it at the times that I care that my care becomes so strong that I just want other people to shut the fuck up. And you know, my care is brightest. My care is strongest. My care will persevere against all of your other thoughts and objectives because
And yeah, to come to terms with, you know what? Yes, that care is great. Let's communicate it. And if other people find that they don't think that care is as important, then I have to be OK with that. And that's been hard.
Chris Saunders (01:30:57.198)
Well, that's also the entrepreneur journey because literally no one will care about your business as much as you do. And your business suffers if you don't care about it. And in fact, there will be very few people outside of you that will care about you caring so much about it. It's a solo style of journey, isn't it?
Frank (01:31:05.177)
Yes.
Frank (01:31:19.793)
It's so true. It's a lonely, yeah, it's, but the cool thing is you can find people that care about parallel things that align, which is nice.
Chris Saunders (01:31:31.746)
Yeah. Well, you get to support them in their journey because they probably have something they care about a lot, right? And then ideally, if you are, you, you encourage them and have care for what they're going after and their personal goals, right? Whether it be, they're working out a lot, or they have this art thing they're doing, or, know, they play music on the side or they have, you know, they do, they throw great parties, like they dinner parties, like maybe that's what they care about. And, know, when you show care for that,
Frank (01:31:37.199)
Right.
Chris Saunders (01:32:00.738)
funny enough, a lot of times people will come around and be willing to have care for, for you having your goals, even though they don't get it and they will not care nearly as much as you. But that is the, that, balancing act of care is a big part of, think having great communication skills is understanding that what you care about will not necessarily be what everyone cares about. But if you show care for someone else's care, that goes a long way.
to getting them to care about your stuff and what you care about. And you can build a support network around having similar like-minded people who are like also entrepreneurs, right? Like that's what, I mean, we're building a community here of nerdy entrepreneurs that can connect with each other, help each other. And part of the reason, even though they're all different niches, markets, that sort of thing, is that they can look at those other people and feel supported or feel that.
that person's like me, they care a lot about this thing. And so I'm not alone because I care a lot about this thing that I'm doing. And I think that it makes it so much easier to keep on that journey of nerdpreneurship or entrepreneurship if you have a support network around you that understands that and cares as much as you do.
Frank (01:33:18.479)
Yeah, I'd even go as far as to specify that it's a respect and encouragement when you have the back and forth, when you can have that with other people, whether it's a fellow nerdpreneur or a boss or even a partner. When you get that encouragement, when they express care for what you care about,
that is respectful, they're not putting it down. It's encouraging. They want you to go get that thing that you care about and use that care to accomplish your goals. That is when you feel nurtured and that's when you want to give it back to them, I find. Because I think we all have been in either relationships or employed or, you know, collaborated with people who only cared about their thing and they didn't care about caring for yours. And it just felt
It feels one-sided.
Chris Saunders (01:34:16.098)
Yeah. Well, it's, it's, learned something in objection handling that, you know, how to not take things personally, you know, it's very easy to write a story about someone who says, you know, I would never spend this kind of money on whatever it is you're selling. Right. especially if you're a high priced product, that has a lot of quality to it. And how easy is it when we're having an objection thrown at us?
to take it personally and then write a story of like, this person is dumb. I hate them for being so self-righteous and their beliefs. They don
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