The Business of Scientific Art with Sienna Art Studios - Interview 29

1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:00,990 I would not be able 2 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,520 to be a professional artist doing. 3 00:00:03,670 --> 00:00:07,490 I don't haven't worked a day job in 15 years. 4 00:00:09,060 --> 00:00:09,730 Not at all. 5 00:00:09,780 --> 00:00:11,270 I haven't been part time with this.

6 00:00:11,300 --> 00:00:13,020 I have been 100% full time with 7 00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:15,430 my business since I started in 2008. 8 00:00:15,610 --> 00:00:16,770 Wow, that's awesome. 9 00:00:16,820 --> 00:00:18,090 Wasn't always easy. 10 00:00:20,110 --> 00:00:22,000 There was a lot of ramen in the beginning.

11 00:01:21,550 --> 00:01:23,580 Welcome to Nerdpreneur where we have 12 00:01:23,620 --> 00:01:25,510 fun conversations with people making 13 00:01:25,570 --> 00:01:28,340 money with their nerdy passion. As always, 14 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,590 I am joined by my co host Frank. 15 00:01:30,740 --> 00:01:31,500 Hello. 16 00:01:31,970 --> 00:01:35,360 And today we have a very special guest.

17 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,020 She's an incredible artist who leads 18 00:01:38,050 --> 00:01:40,430 a small team in her studio in Portland. 19 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,890 Sienna of Sienna Art Studios. 20 00:01:42,990 --> 00:01:44,370 Welcome to the show. 21 00:01:44,550 --> 00:01:46,340 Hi, thanks for having me.

22 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,810 So excited to have you on. So Sienna, 23 00:01:49,990 --> 00:01:52,620 what is your nerdy passion? 24 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,220 I am a biology undergrad and scientific artist. 25 00:01:58,030 --> 00:02:00,360 Interest.

Scientific artist. What? 26 00:02:00,420 --> 00:02:00,880 Yeah. 27 00:02:00,980 --> 00:02:02,970 What is a scientific artist?

28 00:02:04,030 --> 00:02:06,320 I mean a scientific artist can be many things. 29 00:02:06,380 --> 00:02:07,390 There's lots of scientific 30 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:08,840 artists that I follow that 31 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,310 like illustrate anatomy or draw birds. 32 00:02:12,370 --> 00:02:14,570 I follow a lot of people who draw birds. 33 00:02:15,350 --> 00:02:16,320 What I do, 34 00:02:16,420 --> 00:02:19,730 I have a technique of art I call numberism, 35 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:21,340 which is like pointillism 36 00:02:21,510 --> 00:02:23,880 where people draw entirely with dots.

37 00:02:24,030 --> 00:02:25,550 But instead of drawing with dots, 38 00:02:25,620 --> 00:02:26,960 I draw with data. 39 00:02:27,130 --> 00:02:29,430 So I'm drawing intricate pieces 40 00:02:29,540 --> 00:02:32,300 entirely with thousands of numbers 41 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,550 and equations pulled from research, 42 00:02:34,620 --> 00:02:37,190 my own research that explains how 43 00:02:37,220 --> 00:02:39,470 the subject that I'm drawing functions. 44 00:02:40,740 --> 00:02:42,250 Can you give an example? 45 00:02:42,350 --> 00:02:45,180 Like I saw one piece on 46 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,440 your social media that it's a whale.

47 00:02:48,060 --> 00:02:48,810 Oh yeah? 48 00:02:48,910 --> 00:02:50,540 Yeah. What numbers and data are 49 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:51,990 you using in that example? 50 00:02:52,130 --> 00:02:53,090 That one's really cool.

51 00:02:53,150 --> 00:02:54,100 That one's a little bit hard 52 00:02:54,130 --> 00:02:59,090 to explain but this whale is. No, no. I'LL 53 00:02:59,150 --> 00:03:01,990 explain it because this whale. Okay, so the.

54 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:03,250 A really great introduction 55 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:04,650 to my work is the heart. 56 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,280 So I have a human heart 57 00:03:06,410 --> 00:03:08,690 that's drawn with cardiac equations. So 58 00:03:08,790 --> 00:03:11,030 it's drawn with equations for stroke, volume, 59 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,600 ejection fraction, cardiac output, 60 00:03:13,700 --> 00:03:15,580 and all of those equations are placed 61 00:03:15,610 --> 00:03:17,160 in the piece where it makes sense. Like, 62 00:03:17,180 --> 00:03:19,310 cardiac output is in the aorta.

63 00:03:19,910 --> 00:03:23,050 I have a cello where the strings are drawn 64 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,400 with the hertz frequencies of all the notes 65 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,590 that you can play lined up to finger placement. 66 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,670 For that, I graphed it out, and probably, 67 00:03:32,730 --> 00:03:34,260 I think my best work 68 00:03:34,390 --> 00:03:35,890 is it's a really complicated piece, 69 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:37,460 so I'm only going to explain a couple 70 00:03:37,550 --> 00:03:38,960 pieces of data that I drew it with, 71 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,900 because the full description is a whole page. 72 00:03:42,510 --> 00:03:43,310 But it's drawn 73 00:03:43,330 --> 00:03:45,630 with mechanical properties for tendon, muscle, 74 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,820 and bone under ideal conditions. 75 00:03:47,970 --> 00:03:48,800 So it has, like, 76 00:03:48,820 --> 00:03:50,890 the tensile strength of the tendons, 77 00:03:51,070 --> 00:03:53,470 active range of motion for all of the joints, 78 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:54,720 including the carpal bones, 79 00:03:54,780 --> 00:03:56,220 because I'm a crazy person.

80 00:03:56,410 --> 00:03:58,970 And chemistry for muscle contraction. 81 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,490 So I have, like, ATP and acetylcholine. 82 00:04:01,670 --> 00:04:06,260 So every piece I draw is drawn with numbers 83 00:04:06,290 --> 00:04:09,870 and equations that tell its specific story. 84 00:04:10,490 --> 00:04:11,610 That's so cool.

85 00:04:11,750 --> 00:04:12,480 Wow. 86 00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:14,780 So now I got to know what is the whale? 87 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,079 Okay, so the. The whale is something 88 00:04:18,100 --> 00:04:20,490 I've wanted to draw for years.

89 00:04:20,610 --> 00:04:22,620 It's based off of the Lonely Whale, 90 00:04:22,690 --> 00:04:24,550 which you guys may have heard of. 91 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,920 It is a whale that the Navy 92 00:04:26,980 --> 00:04:31,110 has been tracking since the early 90s. It's a. 93 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,810 An unknown species of baleen whale that 94 00:04:33,850 --> 00:04:36,550 sings higher than any other baleen whale.

95 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,430 Its fundamental frequency is 52 Hz, 96 00:04:40,540 --> 00:04:42,750 which is higher than any other baleen whale. 97 00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:45,050 But because it's different, 98 00:04:45,230 --> 00:04:46,980 we've been able to track this one 99 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,210 individual for several decades. And normally, 100 00:04:50,270 --> 00:04:51,570 for a whale, 101 00:04:51,650 --> 00:04:53,250 for one individual in the 102 00:04:53,310 --> 00:04:55,340 vastness of the ocean and with all 103 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:56,860 of the noise that's going on in there, you 104 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,950 can track an individual for about 30 minutes. 105 00:05:01,540 --> 00:05:02,880 People call him lonely 106 00:05:02,970 --> 00:05:07,440 because singing for whales, as in birds, is a.

107 00:05:07,860 --> 00:05:09,690 It's used for sexual selection. 108 00:05:09,860 --> 00:05:11,540 And so if you're singing differently, 109 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,060 you're probably not pairing up and reproducing. 110 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,220 And they also don't tend to record 111 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,020 this whale swimming with other whales, 112 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,030 and so they call him the Lonely Whale. 113 00:05:22,180 --> 00:05:24,230 When I first found this story, 114 00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:25,990 it really resonated with me.

115 00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:28,540 I'm a neurodivergent individual, 116 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,500 and I have a long history of struggling 117 00:05:31,540 --> 00:05:34,140 with things like loneliness, especially. 118 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,260 I think all of us had that during the pandemic, 119 00:05:37,450 --> 00:05:39,220 and I wanted to capture that, 120 00:05:39,290 --> 00:05:43,790 to capture that feeling we all, I think, had. 121 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,310 But over time I started thinking, 122 00:05:47,730 --> 00:05:50,110 how do we know this whale is lonely? 123 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,520 That's our projection.

124 00:05:53,660 --> 00:05:55,730 We are assuming he's lonely 125 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,160 because he's different and we 126 00:05:58,180 --> 00:06:00,140 haven't tracked him with other individuals. 127 00:06:00,290 --> 00:06:01,630 I don't know that he's lonely. 128 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:03,790 I don't know what his inner world is. 129 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:04,840 You can't really know 130 00:06:04,860 --> 00:06:06,670 that with most non human animals.

131 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,170 You certainly can't know that with 132 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:09,990 a whale you've never seen and 133 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:11,820 you don't even know what species it is. 134 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,420 What I know is this whale is different 135 00:06:16,570 --> 00:06:18,560 and because this whale is different, 136 00:06:18,700 --> 00:06:20,220 we get to track him. Like, 137 00:06:20,250 --> 00:06:22,410 we wouldn't have even known he was there 138 00:06:22,550 --> 00:06:24,670 if he sounded like all the other whales. 139 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:25,700 And so for me, 140 00:06:25,770 --> 00:06:27,380 the piece is a celebration 141 00:06:27,740 --> 00:06:31,120 of him and his weirdness.

142 00:06:32,130 --> 00:06:33,300 So I don't know. So there's, 143 00:06:33,330 --> 00:06:36,570 there's theories as to maybe he's a hybrid, 144 00:06:36,740 --> 00:06:40,510 maybe he has a physiological deformity. 145 00:06:40,890 --> 00:06:42,330 And I want to propose that 146 00:06:42,350 --> 00:06:45,310 maybe he likes singing like that. Maybe 147 00:06:45,340 --> 00:06:47,180 he is capable of singing in different ranges, 148 00:06:47,210 --> 00:06:47,850 but he just likes 149 00:06:47,870 --> 00:06:49,950 how it feels or how it sounds.

150 00:06:51,100 --> 00:06:53,340 Yeah, yeah, I totally get that. There's, 151 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,480 I mean, you know, the falsetto range, 152 00:06:55,570 --> 00:06:57,570 Michael Jackson, Justin Timberlake, 153 00:06:57,630 --> 00:07:00,040 like when you get good enough at it, 154 00:07:00,090 --> 00:07:01,210 it sounds good, 155 00:07:01,270 --> 00:07:03,640 but if you're not a great falsetto singer, 156 00:07:03,730 --> 00:07:05,970 it doesn't sound great. 157 00:07:06,110 --> 00:07:07,560 So I could take a Tom. 158 00:07:07,610 --> 00:07:08,940 A Tom Waits is an 159 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:10,740 amazing singer in his own right, 160 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,240 but not at all someone you would say 161 00:07:13,290 --> 00:07:16,510 had a range of voice that was typical.

162 00:07:16,580 --> 00:07:16,910 Right. 163 00:07:16,980 --> 00:07:18,520 So I, Yeah, it's 164 00:07:18,570 --> 00:07:20,930 the Tom Waits of Wales, if you will. Maybe. 165 00:07:21,030 --> 00:07:22,290 I love that celebration 166 00:07:22,350 --> 00:07:24,570 of the difference here and, you know, 167 00:07:24,630 --> 00:07:27,130 finding that that personal story 168 00:07:27,180 --> 00:07:29,720 is beautiful and that connection to it.

169 00:07:29,770 --> 00:07:32,110 And I think we all, yeah, like you said, 170 00:07:32,140 --> 00:07:33,130 we all can relate to 171 00:07:33,150 --> 00:07:35,080 that loneliness factor that we felt. 172 00:07:35,170 --> 00:07:39,810 So am I to understand that the 173 00:07:39,940 --> 00:07:43,080 numberism that you're using here is the. 174 00:07:43,210 --> 00:07:45,170 Is it more hertz kind of stuff? 175 00:07:45,230 --> 00:07:48,310 Is it GPS coordinates of where we've seen them?

176 00:07:49,010 --> 00:07:49,420 What? 177 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:50,300 What is it? 178 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:51,440 So the numbers I'm 179 00:07:51,490 --> 00:07:54,570 using to draw this whale with, it's the, 180 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:55,890 the main frequency, 181 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,010 so 52 hertz. Specifically 182 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,930 because he has a range, it's 51.75 hertz, 183 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,070 which I like because it's 184 00:08:02,090 --> 00:08:03,810 more pleasant to draw that number.

185 00:08:04,150 --> 00:08:08,310 And then I read a bunch of research papers of. 186 00:08:08,390 --> 00:08:12,360 About this whale tracking him and I took his, 187 00:08:12,500 --> 00:08:14,040 the recordings of his songs 188 00:08:14,100 --> 00:08:16,330 and I turned that into numbers. 189 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,260 So I quantified it and 190 00:08:18,270 --> 00:08:20,620 so I'm drawing him with his song. 191 00:08:21,250 --> 00:08:24,940 Interesting.

Have you ever done, like. I mean, 192 00:08:24,970 --> 00:08:25,880 I feel like this might 193 00:08:25,940 --> 00:08:28,080 fall out of Numberism per se, 194 00:08:28,140 --> 00:08:30,230 if I understand it at all. Close. But 195 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,230 it's like the notes that they sing in is that.

196 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:35,780 Do you do that sometimes? 197 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:37,980 That's actually a plan 198 00:08:38,010 --> 00:08:40,179 for a future piece on birds, 199 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:43,450 but I will put out there. 200 00:08:43,510 --> 00:08:44,870 I collaborate with 201 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,080 scientists quite a lot for my pieces, 202 00:08:47,140 --> 00:08:48,700 and I'm looking for someone to 203 00:08:48,730 --> 00:08:50,500 collaborate with on these pieces 204 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,660 that have more of a background in physics. 205 00:08:52,750 --> 00:08:58,210 And how would you say, like, audio analysis?

206 00:08:59,020 --> 00:09:00,260 There are some recordings I 207 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:01,710 have that I don't know how to 208 00:09:01,750 --> 00:09:04,300 quantify to the finest detail that I. 209 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,370 That I need to draw them. 210 00:09:06,420 --> 00:09:09,560 And I need someone who can take my recordings 211 00:09:09,750 --> 00:09:12,660 and transfer them into a sequence of numbers. 212 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:14,660 So any physicists 213 00:09:14,780 --> 00:09:17,190 and audio experts that are listening.

214 00:09:17,330 --> 00:09:18,430 Audio engineers. 215 00:09:18,570 --> 00:09:21,040 I'm looking for a good audio engineer. 216 00:09:21,380 --> 00:09:22,490 There we go. 217 00:09:23,110 --> 00:09:23,710 Awesome.

218 00:09:23,810 --> 00:09:25,000 So that helps give a pretty 219 00:09:25,030 --> 00:09:26,580 good idea of what it is that you do. 220 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,030 Thank you for explaining. 221 00:09:28,170 --> 00:09:29,720 Yeah, yeah. Now, that 222 00:09:29,750 --> 00:09:31,090 begs the question to me of, like, 223 00:09:31,140 --> 00:09:32,670 what came first for you?

224 00:09:32,730 --> 00:09:35,260 Was it the science or the art? 225 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,050 And how did that come to be a discovery? 226 00:09:38,100 --> 00:09:39,450 You should meld the two. 227 00:09:40,140 --> 00:09:41,380 So I've been an artist 228 00:09:41,420 --> 00:09:44,280 since I was a little one, and 229 00:09:44,310 --> 00:09:46,770 I didn't have a background in math or science, 230 00:09:46,930 --> 00:09:49,080 but I was really interested in it.

231 00:09:49,180 --> 00:09:50,800 I've always been a big nerd. 232 00:09:50,850 --> 00:09:52,560 I've always loved school. You 233 00:09:52,580 --> 00:09:54,710 couldn't get me to stop reading and learning, 234 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,620 but I felt a barrier between me and science, 235 00:09:57,730 --> 00:09:59,680 mostly because I had a really bad history 236 00:09:59,730 --> 00:10:02,210 with math and I didn't do well in it. 237 00:10:02,310 --> 00:10:03,990 It really stressed me out.

238 00:10:04,450 --> 00:10:07,720 And so just a wall I was hitting, I found. 239 00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:10,140 So I started doing drawings drawn 240 00:10:10,170 --> 00:10:12,620 in with numbers and equations. Originally, 241 00:10:12,650 --> 00:10:13,480 I was drawing with the 242 00:10:13,500 --> 00:10:15,410 numbers of the clock 1 through 12, 243 00:10:15,540 --> 00:10:16,910 and this was my way of 244 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,380 capturing a moment in time passing. 245 00:10:19,550 --> 00:10:22,590 This was a meditative process I was using 246 00:10:22,730 --> 00:10:25,170 to just try to keep myself in the present, 247 00:10:26,270 --> 00:10:27,320 which was lovely.

248 00:10:27,420 --> 00:10:30,730 When I started drawing numbers and pieces 249 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,280 that were coming from an honest place, 250 00:10:33,420 --> 00:10:37,160 that was the first time that I started reliably 251 00:10:37,220 --> 00:10:40,240 selling my work and people were drawn to it. 252 00:10:40,270 --> 00:10:41,640 And I think that the audience 253 00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:43,720 can always tell when you're being When. 254 00:10:43,740 --> 00:10:44,440 When you're being genuine, 255 00:10:44,460 --> 00:10:45,870 when it's coming from a real place. 256 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,250 But I drew with the numbers of 257 00:10:47,270 --> 00:10:49,510 the clock one through 12 for two years, 258 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:50,680 and then I started 259 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,680 drawing with scientific concepts.

260 00:10:52,740 --> 00:10:54,400 And so the first piece was 261 00:10:54,450 --> 00:10:57,140 Schrodinger's Cat and Fibonacci's Snail. 262 00:10:57,290 --> 00:11:01,060 I did these for fun and then realized 263 00:11:01,130 --> 00:11:03,900 after the fact that illustrating a scientific 264 00:11:03,970 --> 00:11:06,340 concept and numbers in this way helped me 265 00:11:06,370 --> 00:11:08,760 form a stronger relationship with a concept. 266 00:11:08,850 --> 00:11:09,640 So When I was done 267 00:11:09,660 --> 00:11:11,590 with illustrating Schrodinger's cat, 268 00:11:11,730 --> 00:11:14,400 I had a better understanding of the theory, 269 00:11:14,580 --> 00:11:17,150 I had a better understanding of the math, 270 00:11:17,250 --> 00:11:19,060 and I had better recollection of it. 271 00:11:19,150 --> 00:11:22,270 And so I sort of found out on accident that 272 00:11:22,290 --> 00:11:24,580 this was a really good learning device for me.

273 00:11:24,910 --> 00:11:26,430 It was also really helping 274 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,960 me decrease my anxiety about math. 275 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:30,750 And so I think simply drawing 276 00:11:30,810 --> 00:11:32,400 these mathematical equations in 277 00:11:32,420 --> 00:11:34,840 a pretty context helped me approach it, 278 00:11:34,910 --> 00:11:36,610 and so that sort of shattered 279 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,210 my barrier and helped me re. 280 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:39,070 Approach science. 281 00:11:39,170 --> 00:11:42,380 So you used creativity and art to break through 282 00:11:42,430 --> 00:11:45,980 your barriers that surrounded your academics?

283 00:11:46,630 --> 00:11:49,410 Yes. I found a place for myself with 284 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,330 math and science that felt right for me. 285 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:52,470 That's so cool. 286 00:11:52,570 --> 00:11:54,240 I have a close childhood 287 00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:56,520 friend who was struggling with math.

I mean, 288 00:11:56,540 --> 00:11:58,390 he had all kinds of, like, you know, 289 00:11:58,450 --> 00:12:00,440 just not great teachers and whatever it was. 290 00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:03,180 But this is so awesome. 291 00:12:03,350 --> 00:12:04,880 I wonder how many other people deal. 292 00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:08,300 With that, with anxiety, with math.

293 00:12:08,420 --> 00:12:11,590 Yeah, most of us. 294 00:12:11,660 --> 00:12:11,910 Okay. 295 00:12:11,930 --> 00:12:13,890 Yeah. Yeah.

I don't even want 296 00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:16,160 to calculate the tip sometimes. You know, it's. 297 00:12:16,310 --> 00:12:18,310 I personally loved math. I don't know.

298 00:12:18,370 --> 00:12:18,930 I don't know. 299 00:12:19,020 --> 00:12:20,360 I was a theater kid, so I. 300 00:12:20,430 --> 00:12:21,400 I get that I wasn't 301 00:12:21,470 --> 00:12:25,320 super into math on my side, but so when. What.

302 00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:26,800 I love math now. 303 00:12:26,950 --> 00:12:27,790 That's awesome. 304 00:12:27,850 --> 00:12:29,110 Yeah, right? Like, especially 305 00:12:29,170 --> 00:12:31,450 the concepts are so cool.

Right. 306 00:12:31,610 --> 00:12:33,390 I think that most of us would love 307 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,380 math and science if it was presented 308 00:12:35,410 --> 00:12:38,760 in a way that's more relatable and human. Like, 309 00:12:38,780 --> 00:12:41,540 we tend to present math just sort of in this. 310 00:12:41,610 --> 00:12:42,630 The idea is that, like, 311 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:45,000 math lives and dies on the page.

312 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:46,620 It's just rote, 313 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,470 and there's nothing living and human about it. 314 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:51,760 But the fact is, 315 00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:54,330 most math we have came originally 316 00:12:54,370 --> 00:12:56,300 from observations of the natural world. 317 00:12:56,410 --> 00:12:58,860 And so if we were instead learning math 318 00:12:58,930 --> 00:13:01,300 from a perspective of engaging with the world, 319 00:13:01,380 --> 00:13:02,910 it would mean something to us. 320 00:13:03,010 --> 00:13:04,490 It'd be much more relatable.

321 00:13:04,620 --> 00:13:06,590 It'd be much easier to learn and remember, 322 00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:08,020 and people would care about 323 00:13:08,070 --> 00:13:10,760 it and maybe have fun with it. 324 00:13:11,070 --> 00:13:11,780 I immediately 325 00:13:11,830 --> 00:13:14,860 think of Newton and the apple, you know, 326 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,070 that's observing the natural world to help 327 00:13:17,130 --> 00:13:20,440 create that. That. That principle.

Is that. 328 00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:22,090 Is that kind of what you're talking about? 329 00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:24,010 Well, I mean, that's. That's.

330 00:13:24,140 --> 00:13:25,550 That story is not real. 331 00:13:25,650 --> 00:13:28,550 But the nerds coming out. 332 00:13:28,610 --> 00:13:30,800 The nerds coming out, actually. 333 00:13:30,910 --> 00:13:33,950 Actually, yes.

334 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:35,640 All right. 335 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,370 I loved what you said around. Well, 336 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:38,790 you mentioned you started selling your 337 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,250 art when you started doing this 338 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,020 thing that really felt authentic to you, 339 00:13:44,090 --> 00:13:48,590 I think is, like, genuine. Is there.

340 00:13:50,610 --> 00:13:53,050 Do you think, as an artist, is it. Is. 341 00:13:53,230 --> 00:13:55,640 Was it something that you felt when 342 00:13:55,660 --> 00:13:57,980 you were doing it, like, oh, this is. Like, 343 00:13:58,010 --> 00:13:59,720 this is really what 344 00:13:59,770 --> 00:14:01,390 I'm supposed to be doing as an artist.

345 00:14:01,420 --> 00:14:02,840 Or this is what feels authentic 346 00:14:02,930 --> 00:14:05,280 and that's why you did it, or was there. 347 00:14:05,370 --> 00:14:06,490 Was there something else there? 348 00:14:06,510 --> 00:14:07,670 Was it just a feeling that you 349 00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:09,460 had that you kind of trusted to go with? 350 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,430 Or.

And is it. Is that now a barometer for you? 351 00:14:12,460 --> 00:14:13,600 Because I find that's 352 00:14:13,650 --> 00:14:14,950 the way art kind of works, 353 00:14:14,980 --> 00:14:16,170 at least for some people. Or 354 00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:18,700 was there more intention behind it than that?

355 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,510 Was there science behind it? 356 00:14:20,930 --> 00:14:22,820 So I started drawing with numbers 357 00:14:22,860 --> 00:14:25,240 and equations because I needed it. 358 00:14:26,270 --> 00:14:29,060 I was in a pretty bad place. 359 00:14:29,190 --> 00:14:31,860 I was struggling with depression and anxiety.

360 00:14:32,150 --> 00:14:34,750 My life had sort of hit a reset, 361 00:14:34,810 --> 00:14:37,220 and I didn't know where I was going next. 362 00:14:38,390 --> 00:14:40,770 And this work helped center me. 363 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,160 I have found that most of my most successful 364 00:14:44,220 --> 00:14:47,500 work is when it is completing something for me. 365 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:49,480 I think I was hesitant 366 00:14:49,510 --> 00:14:52,410 to do that because you.

You're like, well, 367 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:53,830 this is something that I need. What 368 00:14:53,850 --> 00:14:57,080 about what my clients want or the public wants? 369 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:58,400 But the fact is, 370 00:14:58,460 --> 00:15:00,040 we're all really similar. 371 00:15:00,180 --> 00:15:01,860 And so when I was creating 372 00:15:01,910 --> 00:15:03,540 artwork about my vulnerabilities, 373 00:15:03,670 --> 00:15:05,900 which I will tell you, while creating those, 374 00:15:05,950 --> 00:15:09,200 it felt kind of scary because I was 375 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,790 being really vulnerable and soft with the.

376 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:12,400 With the world. 377 00:15:12,460 --> 00:15:13,030 And at the time, 378 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:14,860 that was very difficult for me. 379 00:15:15,150 --> 00:15:16,960 And I think people, 380 00:15:17,060 --> 00:15:19,050 when they see work that does that, 381 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:20,960 it resonates with them, and 382 00:15:20,980 --> 00:15:23,450 it completes something that's missing for them, 383 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,110 something that they want to communicate, 384 00:15:25,170 --> 00:15:26,950 something that they want to process. 385 00:15:27,130 --> 00:15:28,490 And with a lot of my pieces, 386 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,870 they do actually have a lot to do with 387 00:15:31,010 --> 00:15:35,700 mental health and a personal journey, which, 388 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,200 nine times out of 10, 389 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,500 is something people can relate with.

390 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,570 So I will say also that with a 391 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,220 question about when you start being 392 00:15:48,270 --> 00:15:50,200 successful as an artist and how 393 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,250 that relates to creating authentic work. 394 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:56,930 I know a lot of artists, 395 00:15:57,270 --> 00:15:59,030 and there's a wide 396 00:15:59,090 --> 00:16:01,150 range of how successful they are. 397 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,780 And I will say, first of all, 398 00:16:03,830 --> 00:16:04,520 you don't need to be 399 00:16:04,540 --> 00:16:06,290 a great artist to be successful. 400 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,740 You need to be persistent, 401 00:16:11,630 --> 00:16:14,520 and you do need to finish a project well.

402 00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:17,310 So not just to finish a project, 403 00:16:17,410 --> 00:16:18,960 but to run a business. 404 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:20,360 So to be a successful artist, 405 00:16:20,390 --> 00:16:22,770 you're running an artist business. 406 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:24,510 You just need to never. 407 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,400 You need to be consistent, keep making work, 408 00:16:27,540 --> 00:16:29,860 listen to your public, 409 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,100 and be willing to make adjustments.

410 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:34,010 But starting off 411 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:35,810 with creating work that you love, that 412 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,600 resonates with you is where you have to start. 413 00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:39,070 I know some artists who show 414 00:16:39,090 --> 00:16:40,990 up at these events all the time, 415 00:16:41,020 --> 00:16:42,100 and I ask them, like, hey, 416 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,780 what is this piece about? Like, oh, 417 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,300 I don't know people like, you know, 418 00:16:45,380 --> 00:16:46,720 these animals. 419 00:16:46,910 --> 00:16:49,460 Yeah, right.

We at Emerald City Comic Con, 420 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:50,270 we definitely saw 421 00:16:50,330 --> 00:16:52,110 people just pandering to like, oh, 422 00:16:52,140 --> 00:16:54,910 these are big superheroes, big names. 423 00:16:54,970 --> 00:16:56,040 I just made it. 424 00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:58,040 Yeah. And they look sad.

425 00:16:59,350 --> 00:17:01,200 So these vendors that I 426 00:17:01,230 --> 00:17:03,110 know who draw and paint things 427 00:17:03,170 --> 00:17:04,980 because they think people will want them, 428 00:17:05,109 --> 00:17:07,740 they look hollow and they're stressed 429 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,680 and they're burnt out and they're not 430 00:17:09,710 --> 00:17:11,530 making the money that they want to make. 431 00:17:12,220 --> 00:17:14,599 I will say that working events 432 00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:17,369 like Emerald City Comic Con is hard. 433 00:17:17,740 --> 00:17:19,560 Running an arts business, 434 00:17:19,670 --> 00:17:21,470 you hit burnout. 435 00:17:21,609 --> 00:17:23,270 This is like I was telling, 436 00:17:23,380 --> 00:17:24,410 I was telling my therapist 437 00:17:24,460 --> 00:17:26,849 the other day that working at event, 438 00:17:26,940 --> 00:17:29,600 you have a 30 second soul pitch that you 439 00:17:29,630 --> 00:17:31,670 do with each person that walks into the booth.

440 00:17:31,730 --> 00:17:33,290 And you do that for 10 hours. 441 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:33,990 You know, you're, 442 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,960 you're out there giving yourself and your work. 443 00:17:37,020 --> 00:17:38,230 It's super vulnerable. 444 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:39,430 So even when you're, 445 00:17:39,530 --> 00:17:41,450 when you're creating genuine work, 446 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:43,280 it's going to be exhausting.

447 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:45,860 So if you know it's going to be hard, 448 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,320 do it in a way that's sustainable. 449 00:17:48,380 --> 00:17:50,670 And the only way it can be sustainable, really, 450 00:17:50,710 --> 00:17:52,360 is if it's something you love that 451 00:17:52,380 --> 00:17:54,180 you're willing to put in that effort for. 452 00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:56,060 That you're willing to bleed for. 453 00:17:57,150 --> 00:17:57,830 Amen.

454 00:17:57,930 --> 00:17:59,930 Yeah. That's so much 455 00:17:59,970 --> 00:18:01,860 what Nerdpreneur is about too. It 456 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,580 strikes at the heart of it, is that, you know, 457 00:18:03,620 --> 00:18:05,300 starting a business is not easy, 458 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:07,890 no matter what business it is. 459 00:18:08,060 --> 00:18:09,970 And it becomes infinitely harder 460 00:18:10,020 --> 00:18:11,820 if you're doing something that you 461 00:18:11,860 --> 00:18:14,010 hate doing or you have no interest in.

462 00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:16,950 And so that's. 463 00:18:17,490 --> 00:18:19,410 That must be, I mean, events. 464 00:18:19,470 --> 00:18:21,030 Let's talk about those for a second. 465 00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:23,040 Because they are, I mean, they're, 466 00:18:23,090 --> 00:18:24,340 they're hard for people just 467 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,130 going to them and not being a vendor, 468 00:18:26,170 --> 00:18:28,380 even just like getting through three days 469 00:18:28,410 --> 00:18:30,900 or four days of an event can be a lot 470 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,460 when you're actually a vendor there.

471 00:18:36,090 --> 00:18:37,730 Maybe give us how 472 00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:39,310 many events do you do in a year? 473 00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:41,210 And is it something you like? Do you 474 00:18:41,230 --> 00:18:42,700 do because of the necessity of the business, 475 00:18:42,730 --> 00:18:43,810 or is there some things 476 00:18:43,850 --> 00:18:45,660 that you really look forward to it? 477 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,080 I do two types of events.

478 00:18:48,140 --> 00:18:51,200 I do art markets and I do Comic Cons and then 479 00:18:51,220 --> 00:18:54,420 I also do open studio events and gallery shows. 480 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,300 The selling at these events 481 00:18:56,370 --> 00:18:57,920 is the foundation of my business. 482 00:18:58,010 --> 00:18:59,980 And most of my clientele actually 483 00:19:00,050 --> 00:19:02,410 comes from meeting the