The Business of Scientific Art with Sienna Art Studios - Interview 29

Show Transcript

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I would not be able

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to be a professional artist doing.

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I don't haven't worked a day job in 15 years.

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Not at all.

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I haven't been part time with this.

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I have been 100% full time with

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my business since I started in 2008.

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Wow, that's awesome.

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Wasn't always easy.

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There was a lot of ramen in the beginning.

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Welcome to Nerdpreneur where we have

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fun conversations with people making

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money with their nerdy passion. As always,

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I am joined by my co host Frank.

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Hello.

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And today we have a very special guest.

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She's an incredible artist who leads

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a small team in her studio in Portland.

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Sienna of Sienna Art Studios.

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Welcome to the show.

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Hi, thanks for having me.

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So excited to have you on. So Sienna,

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what is your nerdy passion?

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I am a biology undergrad and scientific artist.

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Interest. Scientific artist. What?

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Yeah.

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What is a scientific artist?

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I mean a scientific artist can be many things.

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There's lots of scientific

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artists that I follow that

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like illustrate anatomy or draw birds.

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I follow a lot of people who draw birds.

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What I do,

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I have a technique of art I call numberism,

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which is like pointillism

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where people draw entirely with dots.

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But instead of drawing with dots,

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I draw with data.

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So I'm drawing intricate pieces

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entirely with thousands of numbers

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and equations pulled from research,

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my own research that explains how

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the subject that I'm drawing functions.

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Can you give an example?

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Like I saw one piece on

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your social media that it's a whale.

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Oh yeah?

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Yeah. What numbers and data are

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you using in that example?

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That one's really cool.

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That one's a little bit hard

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to explain but this whale is. No, no. I'LL

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explain it because this whale. Okay, so the.

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A really great introduction

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to my work is the heart.

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So I have a human heart

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that's drawn with cardiac equations. So

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it's drawn with equations for stroke, volume,

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ejection fraction, cardiac output,

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and all of those equations are placed

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in the piece where it makes sense. Like,

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cardiac output is in the aorta.

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I have a cello where the strings are drawn

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with the hertz frequencies of all the notes

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that you can play lined up to finger placement.

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For that, I graphed it out, and probably,

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I think my best work

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is it's a really complicated piece,

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so I'm only going to explain a couple

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pieces of data that I drew it with,

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because the full description is a whole page.

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But it's drawn

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with mechanical properties for tendon, muscle,

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and bone under ideal conditions.

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So it has, like,

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the tensile strength of the tendons,

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active range of motion for all of the joints,

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including the carpal bones,

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because I'm a crazy person.

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And chemistry for muscle contraction.

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So I have, like, ATP and acetylcholine.

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So every piece I draw is drawn with numbers

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and equations that tell its specific story.

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That's so cool.

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Wow.

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So now I got to know what is the whale?

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Okay, so the. The whale is something

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I've wanted to draw for years.

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It's based off of the Lonely Whale,

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which you guys may have heard of.

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It is a whale that the Navy

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has been tracking since the early 90s. It's a.

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An unknown species of baleen whale that

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sings higher than any other baleen whale.

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Its fundamental frequency is 52 Hz,

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which is higher than any other baleen whale.

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But because it's different,

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we've been able to track this one

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individual for several decades. And normally,

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for a whale,

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for one individual in the

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vastness of the ocean and with all

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of the noise that's going on in there, you

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can track an individual for about 30 minutes.

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People call him lonely

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because singing for whales, as in birds, is a.

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It's used for sexual selection.

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And so if you're singing differently,

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you're probably not pairing up and reproducing.

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And they also don't tend to record

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this whale swimming with other whales,

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and so they call him the Lonely Whale.

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When I first found this story,

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it really resonated with me.

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I'm a neurodivergent individual,

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and I have a long history of struggling

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with things like loneliness, especially.

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I think all of us had that during the pandemic,

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and I wanted to capture that,

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to capture that feeling we all, I think, had.

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But over time I started thinking,

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how do we know this whale is lonely?

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That's our projection.

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We are assuming he's lonely

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because he's different and we

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haven't tracked him with other individuals.

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I don't know that he's lonely.

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I don't know what his inner world is.

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You can't really know

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that with most non human animals.

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You certainly can't know that with

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a whale you've never seen and

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you don't even know what species it is.

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What I know is this whale is different

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and because this whale is different,

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we get to track him. Like,

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we wouldn't have even known he was there

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if he sounded like all the other whales.

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And so for me,

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the piece is a celebration

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of him and his weirdness.

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So I don't know. So there's,

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there's theories as to maybe he's a hybrid,

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maybe he has a physiological deformity.

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And I want to propose that

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maybe he likes singing like that. Maybe

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he is capable of singing in different ranges,

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but he just likes

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how it feels or how it sounds.

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Yeah, yeah, I totally get that. There's,

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I mean, you know, the falsetto range,

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Michael Jackson, Justin Timberlake,

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like when you get good enough at it,

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it sounds good,

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but if you're not a great falsetto singer,

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it doesn't sound great.

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So I could take a Tom.

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A Tom Waits is an

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amazing singer in his own right,

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but not at all someone you would say

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had a range of voice that was typical.

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Right.

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So I, Yeah, it's

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the Tom Waits of Wales, if you will. Maybe.

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I love that celebration

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of the difference here and, you know,

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finding that that personal story

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is beautiful and that connection to it.

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And I think we all, yeah, like you said,

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we all can relate to

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that loneliness factor that we felt.

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So am I to understand that the

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numberism that you're using here is the.

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Is it more hertz kind of stuff?

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Is it GPS coordinates of where we've seen them?

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What?

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What is it?

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So the numbers I'm

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using to draw this whale with, it's the,

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the main frequency,

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so 52 hertz. Specifically

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because he has a range, it's 51.75 hertz,

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which I like because it's

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more pleasant to draw that number.

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And then I read a bunch of research papers of.

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About this whale tracking him and I took his,

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the recordings of his songs

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and I turned that into numbers.

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So I quantified it and

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so I'm drawing him with his song.

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Interesting. Have you ever done, like. I mean,

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I feel like this might

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fall out of Numberism per se,

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if I understand it at all. Close. But

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it's like the notes that they sing in is that.

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Do you do that sometimes?

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That's actually a plan

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for a future piece on birds,

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but I will put out there.

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I collaborate with

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scientists quite a lot for my pieces,

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and I'm looking for someone to

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collaborate with on these pieces

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that have more of a background in physics.

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And how would you say, like, audio analysis?

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There are some recordings I

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have that I don't know how to

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quantify to the finest detail that I.

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That I need to draw them.

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And I need someone who can take my recordings

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and transfer them into a sequence of numbers.

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So any physicists

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and audio experts that are listening.

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Audio engineers.

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I'm looking for a good audio engineer.

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There we go.

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Awesome.

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So that helps give a pretty

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good idea of what it is that you do.

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Thank you for explaining.

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Yeah, yeah. Now, that

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begs the question to me of, like,

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what came first for you?

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Was it the science or the art?

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And how did that come to be a discovery?

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You should meld the two.

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So I've been an artist

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since I was a little one, and

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I didn't have a background in math or science,

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but I was really interested in it.

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I've always been a big nerd.

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I've always loved school. You

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couldn't get me to stop reading and learning,

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but I felt a barrier between me and science,

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mostly because I had a really bad history

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with math and I didn't do well in it.

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It really stressed me out.

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And so just a wall I was hitting, I found.

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So I started doing drawings drawn

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in with numbers and equations. Originally,

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I was drawing with the

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numbers of the clock 1 through 12,

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and this was my way of

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capturing a moment in time passing.

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This was a meditative process I was using

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to just try to keep myself in the present,

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which was lovely.

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When I started drawing numbers and pieces

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that were coming from an honest place,

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that was the first time that I started reliably

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selling my work and people were drawn to it.

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And I think that the audience

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can always tell when you're being When.

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When you're being genuine,

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when it's coming from a real place.

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But I drew with the numbers of

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the clock one through 12 for two years,

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and then I started

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drawing with scientific concepts.

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And so the first piece was

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Schrodinger's Cat and Fibonacci's Snail.

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I did these for fun and then realized

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after the fact that illustrating a scientific

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concept and numbers in this way helped me

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form a stronger relationship with a concept.

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So When I was done

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with illustrating Schrodinger's cat,

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I had a better understanding of the theory,

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I had a better understanding of the math,

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and I had better recollection of it.

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And so I sort of found out on accident that

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this was a really good learning device for me.

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It was also really helping

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me decrease my anxiety about math.

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And so I think simply drawing

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these mathematical equations in

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a pretty context helped me approach it,

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00:11:34,910 --> 00:11:36,610
and so that sort of shattered

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00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,210
my barrier and helped me re.

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Approach science.

281
00:11:39,170 --> 00:11:42,380
So you used creativity and art to break through

282
00:11:42,430 --> 00:11:45,980
your barriers that surrounded your academics?

283
00:11:46,630 --> 00:11:49,410
Yes. I found a place for myself with

284
00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,330
math and science that felt right for me.

285
00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:52,470
That's so cool.

286
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I have a close childhood

287
00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:56,520
friend who was struggling with math. I mean,

288
00:11:56,540 --> 00:11:58,390
he had all kinds of, like, you know,

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00:11:58,450 --> 00:12:00,440
just not great teachers and whatever it was.

290
00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:03,180
But this is so awesome.

291
00:12:03,350 --> 00:12:04,880
I wonder how many other people deal.

292
00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:08,300
With that, with anxiety, with math.

293
00:12:08,420 --> 00:12:11,590
Yeah, most of us.

294
00:12:11,660 --> 00:12:11,910
Okay.

295
00:12:11,930 --> 00:12:13,890
Yeah. Yeah. I don't even want

296
00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:16,160
to calculate the tip sometimes. You know, it's.

297
00:12:16,310 --> 00:12:18,310
I personally loved math. I don't know.

298
00:12:18,370 --> 00:12:18,930
I don't know.

299
00:12:19,020 --> 00:12:20,360
I was a theater kid, so I.

300
00:12:20,430 --> 00:12:21,400
I get that I wasn't

301
00:12:21,470 --> 00:12:25,320
super into math on my side, but so when. What.

302
00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:26,800
I love math now.

303
00:12:26,950 --> 00:12:27,790
That's awesome.

304
00:12:27,850 --> 00:12:29,110
Yeah, right? Like, especially

305
00:12:29,170 --> 00:12:31,450
the concepts are so cool. Right.

306
00:12:31,610 --> 00:12:33,390
I think that most of us would love

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00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,380
math and science if it was presented

308
00:12:35,410 --> 00:12:38,760
in a way that's more relatable and human. Like,

309
00:12:38,780 --> 00:12:41,540
we tend to present math just sort of in this.

310
00:12:41,610 --> 00:12:42,630
The idea is that, like,

311
00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:45,000
math lives and dies on the page.

312
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:46,620
It's just rote,

313
00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,470
and there's nothing living and human about it.

314
00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:51,760
But the fact is,

315
00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:54,330
most math we have came originally

316
00:12:54,370 --> 00:12:56,300
from observations of the natural world.

317
00:12:56,410 --> 00:12:58,860
And so if we were instead learning math

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00:12:58,930 --> 00:13:01,300
from a perspective of engaging with the world,

319
00:13:01,380 --> 00:13:02,910
it would mean something to us.

320
00:13:03,010 --> 00:13:04,490
It'd be much more relatable.

321
00:13:04,620 --> 00:13:06,590
It'd be much easier to learn and remember,

322
00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:08,020
and people would care about

323
00:13:08,070 --> 00:13:10,760
it and maybe have fun with it.

324
00:13:11,070 --> 00:13:11,780
I immediately

325
00:13:11,830 --> 00:13:14,860
think of Newton and the apple, you know,

326
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,070
that's observing the natural world to help

327
00:13:17,130 --> 00:13:20,440
create that. That. That principle. Is that.

328
00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:22,090
Is that kind of what you're talking about?

329
00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:24,010
Well, I mean, that's. That's.

330
00:13:24,140 --> 00:13:25,550
That story is not real.

331
00:13:25,650 --> 00:13:28,550
But the nerds coming out.

332
00:13:28,610 --> 00:13:30,800
The nerds coming out, actually.

333
00:13:30,910 --> 00:13:33,950
Actually, yes.

334
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:35,640
All right.

335
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,370
I loved what you said around. Well,

336
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:38,790
you mentioned you started selling your

337
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,250
art when you started doing this

338
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,020
thing that really felt authentic to you,

339
00:13:44,090 --> 00:13:48,590
I think is, like, genuine. Is there.

340
00:13:50,610 --> 00:13:53,050
Do you think, as an artist, is it. Is.

341
00:13:53,230 --> 00:13:55,640
Was it something that you felt when

342
00:13:55,660 --> 00:13:57,980
you were doing it, like, oh, this is. Like,

343
00:13:58,010 --> 00:13:59,720
this is really what

344
00:13:59,770 --> 00:14:01,390
I'm supposed to be doing as an artist.

345
00:14:01,420 --> 00:14:02,840
Or this is what feels authentic

346
00:14:02,930 --> 00:14:05,280
and that's why you did it, or was there.

347
00:14:05,370 --> 00:14:06,490
Was there something else there?

348
00:14:06,510 --> 00:14:07,670
Was it just a feeling that you

349
00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:09,460
had that you kind of trusted to go with?

350
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,430
Or. And is it. Is that now a barometer for you?

351
00:14:12,460 --> 00:14:13,600
Because I find that's

352
00:14:13,650 --> 00:14:14,950
the way art kind of works,

353
00:14:14,980 --> 00:14:16,170
at least for some people. Or

354
00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:18,700
was there more intention behind it than that?

355
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,510
Was there science behind it?

356
00:14:20,930 --> 00:14:22,820
So I started drawing with numbers

357
00:14:22,860 --> 00:14:25,240
and equations because I needed it.

358
00:14:26,270 --> 00:14:29,060
I was in a pretty bad place.

359
00:14:29,190 --> 00:14:31,860
I was struggling with depression and anxiety.

360
00:14:32,150 --> 00:14:34,750
My life had sort of hit a reset,

361
00:14:34,810 --> 00:14:37,220
and I didn't know where I was going next.

362
00:14:38,390 --> 00:14:40,770
And this work helped center me.

363
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,160
I have found that most of my most successful

364
00:14:44,220 --> 00:14:47,500
work is when it is completing something for me.

365
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:49,480
I think I was hesitant

366
00:14:49,510 --> 00:14:52,410
to do that because you. You're like, well,

367
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:53,830
this is something that I need. What

368
00:14:53,850 --> 00:14:57,080
about what my clients want or the public wants?

369
00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:58,400
But the fact is,

370
00:14:58,460 --> 00:15:00,040
we're all really similar.

371
00:15:00,180 --> 00:15:01,860
And so when I was creating

372
00:15:01,910 --> 00:15:03,540
artwork about my vulnerabilities,

373
00:15:03,670 --> 00:15:05,900
which I will tell you, while creating those,

374
00:15:05,950 --> 00:15:09,200
it felt kind of scary because I was

375
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,790
being really vulnerable and soft with the.

376
00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:12,400
With the world.

377
00:15:12,460 --> 00:15:13,030
And at the time,

378
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:14,860
that was very difficult for me.

379
00:15:15,150 --> 00:15:16,960
And I think people,

380
00:15:17,060 --> 00:15:19,050
when they see work that does that,

381
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:20,960
it resonates with them, and

382
00:15:20,980 --> 00:15:23,450
it completes something that's missing for them,

383
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,110
something that they want to communicate,

384
00:15:25,170 --> 00:15:26,950
something that they want to process.

385
00:15:27,130 --> 00:15:28,490
And with a lot of my pieces,

386
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,870
they do actually have a lot to do with

387
00:15:31,010 --> 00:15:35,700
mental health and a personal journey, which,

388
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,200
nine times out of 10,

389
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,500
is something people can relate with.

390
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,570
So I will say also that with a

391
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,220
question about when you start being

392
00:15:48,270 --> 00:15:50,200
successful as an artist and how

393
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,250
that relates to creating authentic work.

394
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:56,930
I know a lot of artists,

395
00:15:57,270 --> 00:15:59,030
and there's a wide

396
00:15:59,090 --> 00:16:01,150
range of how successful they are.

397
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,780
And I will say, first of all,

398
00:16:03,830 --> 00:16:04,520
you don't need to be

399
00:16:04,540 --> 00:16:06,290
a great artist to be successful.

400
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,740
You need to be persistent,

401
00:16:11,630 --> 00:16:14,520
and you do need to finish a project well.

402
00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:17,310
So not just to finish a project,

403
00:16:17,410 --> 00:16:18,960
but to run a business.

404
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:20,360
So to be a successful artist,

405
00:16:20,390 --> 00:16:22,770
you're running an artist business.

406
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:24,510
You just need to never.

407
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,400
You need to be consistent, keep making work,

408
00:16:27,540 --> 00:16:29,860
listen to your public,

409
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,100
and be willing to make adjustments.

410
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:34,010
But starting off

411
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:35,810
with creating work that you love, that

412
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,600
resonates with you is where you have to start.

413
00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:39,070
I know some artists who show

414
00:16:39,090 --> 00:16:40,990
up at these events all the time,

415
00:16:41,020 --> 00:16:42,100
and I ask them, like, hey,

416
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,780
what is this piece about? Like, oh,

417
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,300
I don't know people like, you know,

418
00:16:45,380 --> 00:16:46,720
these animals.

419
00:16:46,910 --> 00:16:49,460
Yeah, right. We at Emerald City Comic Con,

420
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:50,270
we definitely saw

421
00:16:50,330 --> 00:16:52,110
people just pandering to like, oh,

422
00:16:52,140 --> 00:16:54,910
these are big superheroes, big names.

423
00:16:54,970 --> 00:16:56,040
I just made it.

424
00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:58,040
Yeah. And they look sad.

425
00:16:59,350 --> 00:17:01,200
So these vendors that I

426
00:17:01,230 --> 00:17:03,110
know who draw and paint things

427
00:17:03,170 --> 00:17:04,980
because they think people will want them,

428
00:17:05,109 --> 00:17:07,740
they look hollow and they're stressed

429
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,680
and they're burnt out and they're not

430
00:17:09,710 --> 00:17:11,530
making the money that they want to make.

431
00:17:12,220 --> 00:17:14,599
I will say that working events

432
00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:17,369
like Emerald City Comic Con is hard.

433
00:17:17,740 --> 00:17:19,560
Running an arts business,

434
00:17:19,670 --> 00:17:21,470
you hit burnout.

435
00:17:21,609 --> 00:17:23,270
This is like I was telling,

436
00:17:23,380 --> 00:17:24,410
I was telling my therapist

437
00:17:24,460 --> 00:17:26,849
the other day that working at event,

438
00:17:26,940 --> 00:17:29,600
you have a 30 second soul pitch that you

439
00:17:29,630 --> 00:17:31,670
do with each person that walks into the booth.

440
00:17:31,730 --> 00:17:33,290
And you do that for 10 hours.

441
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:33,990
You know, you're,

442
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,960
you're out there giving yourself and your work.

443
00:17:37,020 --> 00:17:38,230
It's super vulnerable.

444
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:39,430
So even when you're,

445
00:17:39,530 --> 00:17:41,450
when you're creating genuine work,

446
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:43,280
it's going to be exhausting.

447
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:45,860
So if you know it's going to be hard,

448
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,320
do it in a way that's sustainable.

449
00:17:48,380 --> 00:17:50,670
And the only way it can be sustainable, really,

450
00:17:50,710 --> 00:17:52,360
is if it's something you love that

451
00:17:52,380 --> 00:17:54,180
you're willing to put in that effort for.

452
00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:56,060
That you're willing to bleed for.

453
00:17:57,150 --> 00:17:57,830
Amen.

454
00:17:57,930 --> 00:17:59,930
Yeah. That's so much

455
00:17:59,970 --> 00:18:01,860
what Nerdpreneur is about too. It

456
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,580
strikes at the heart of it, is that, you know,

457
00:18:03,620 --> 00:18:05,300
starting a business is not easy,

458
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:07,890
no matter what business it is.

459
00:18:08,060 --> 00:18:09,970
And it becomes infinitely harder

460
00:18:10,020 --> 00:18:11,820
if you're doing something that you

461
00:18:11,860 --> 00:18:14,010
hate doing or you have no interest in.

462
00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:16,950
And so that's.

463
00:18:17,490 --> 00:18:19,410
That must be, I mean, events.

464
00:18:19,470 --> 00:18:21,030
Let's talk about those for a second.

465
00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:23,040
Because they are, I mean, they're,

466
00:18:23,090 --> 00:18:24,340
they're hard for people just

467
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,130
going to them and not being a vendor,

468
00:18:26,170 --> 00:18:28,380
even just like getting through three days

469
00:18:28,410 --> 00:18:30,900
or four days of an event can be a lot

470
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,460
when you're actually a vendor there.

471
00:18:36,090 --> 00:18:37,730
Maybe give us how

472
00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:39,310
many events do you do in a year?

473
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:41,210
And is it something you like? Do you

474
00:18:41,230 --> 00:18:42,700
do because of the necessity of the business,

475
00:18:42,730 --> 00:18:43,810
or is there some things

476
00:18:43,850 --> 00:18:45,660
that you really look forward to it?

477
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,080
I do two types of events.

478
00:18:48,140 --> 00:18:51,200
I do art markets and I do Comic Cons and then

479
00:18:51,220 --> 00:18:54,420
I also do open studio events and gallery shows.

480
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,300
The selling at these events

481
00:18:56,370 --> 00:18:57,920
is the foundation of my business.

482
00:18:58,010 --> 00:18:59,980
And most of my clientele actually

483
00:19:00,050 --> 00:19:02,410
comes from meeting the